Pandora Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 (edited) The Boris review is smoking the Doublespeakers of HS2 Ltd Big Brother and their HS2 Ltd Thought Police from living (lying) from behind the safety of their Telescreens Edited September 3, 2019 by Pandora Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsforever Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Luddites forever also its going over budge by £22 billion on the news today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 28 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said: Inevitably it will cost more if construction takes longer or is delayed for whatever reason. Building it more quickly would be cheaper and de-speccing (ideally the maxiumum speed) could also reduce the cost as could doing away with soem of the tunnelling and staying above ground. And let us not forget, independently of this announcement HS2 is still under review overall as a project. I know what uncontrollably over budget and massively delayed compared to original estimates says to me. Cut your losses. Soonest done, the greater the saving. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Phil Parker Posted September 3, 2019 Administrators Share Posted September 3, 2019 24 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said: And let us not forget, independently of this announcement HS2 is still under review overall as a project. I know what uncontrollably over budget and massively delayed compared to original estimates says to me. Cut your losses. Soonest done, the greater the saving. And then what? Start again? Accept that we will never have the capacity we require on the rail network? 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted September 3, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 3, 2019 1 hour ago, 62613 said: Yes, it's tragic; why are you misrepresenting Luddites again? Luddite: "a person opposed to new technology or ways of working" Where's the misrepresentation? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted September 3, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 3, 2019 Now we have the prospect of having to have new rolling stock to use on the traditional network to replace the Pendos at great expense rather than for HS2. Also the constant pounding on the WCML will mean that will need to have a lot of money spent on it just to maintain present levels and it will still be overcrowded with a lack of required train paths. What a shambles. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ruggedpeak Posted September 3, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 3, 2019 5 minutes ago, melmerby said: Luddite: "a person opposed to new technology or ways of working" Where's the misrepresentation? It's a massively overbudget and delayed public railway project. Nothing remotely new fangled in that. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Phil Parker Posted September 3, 2019 Administrators Share Posted September 3, 2019 It's a massively overbudget and delayed public railway project. Nothing remotely new fangled in that. Fixed it for you. To be fair, most public projects would work better and be cheaper if the politicians were kept out of them. Changing your mind like the wind is not a recipe for keeping costs down. 12 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AY Mod Posted September 3, 2019 Moderators Share Posted September 3, 2019 54 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said: I know what uncontrollably over budget and massively delayed compared to original estimates says to me. Cut your losses. Soonest done, the greater the saving. I would suggest that's exactly that's what the shorthold tenants of the Palace of Westminster want many people to think - to give the illusion of prudence in saving money they haven't got/borrowed yet, or have promised to others. 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ruggedpeak Posted September 3, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 3, 2019 36 minutes ago, Phil Parker said: It's a massively overbudget and delayed public railway project. Nothing remotely new fangled in that. Fixed it for you. To be fair, most public projects would work better and be cheaper if the politicians were kept out of them. Changing your mind like the wind is not a recipe for keeping costs down. "HS2 is the new railway that will be the backbone of Britain’s transport network." https://www.hs2.org.uk/why/about-us/ "High Speed Two (HS2) is the new high speed railway we are building that will be the backbone of the national rail network." https://www.hs2.org.uk/timeline-1/ HS2 thinks it's a railway project. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 I agree. As a taxpayer it now qualifies as the moneypit to end all moneypits. Politics is the art of the possible. 1 hour ago, Phil Parker said: And then what? Start again? Accept that we will never have the capacity we require on the rail network? It might come to that. Perhaps the idea that 'we' shouldn't go travelling so much will catch on? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted September 3, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 3, 2019 11 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said: "HS2 is the new railway that will be the backbone of Britain’s transport network." https://www.hs2.org.uk/why/about-us/ "High Speed Two (HS2) is the new high speed railway we are building that will be the backbone of the national rail network." https://www.hs2.org.uk/timeline-1/ HS2 thinks it's a railway project. That doesn't stop it from being a public and hence politically mangled project.. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guzzler17 Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 14 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said: Perhaps the idea that 'we' shouldn't go travelling so much will catch on? And perhaps if a portion of the HS2 budget was spent on installing fibre broadband to the whole country then people could video-conference / skpye / or whatever more than can now and then they wouldn't need to travel. Oh and in doing so that would benefit the whole of the UK rather than those who just want to go to Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham or London. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdvle Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 1 minute ago, guzzler17 said: And perhaps if a portion of the HS2 budget was spent on installing fibre broadband to the whole country then people could video-conference / skpye / or whatever more than can now and then they wouldn't need to travel. Oh and in doing so that would benefit the whole of the UK rather than those who just want to go to Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham or London. Except experience has shown the travel, and the face to face encounters that result, tend to be far more productive in many cases than any number video conferencing sessions. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Phil Parker Posted September 3, 2019 Administrators Share Posted September 3, 2019 21 minutes ago, guzzler17 said: Oh and in doing so that would benefit the whole of the UK rather than those who just want to go to Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham or London. You may want to read back in the thread to understand why it benefits far more than those limited destinations. Also, why it's not all about speed. And no amount of video conferencing will take a single lorry off the roads. Extra capacity on the railway just might. But as I say, dig back a few pages for people who work in these areas explanations. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 11 minutes ago, mdvle said: Except experience has shown the travel, and the face to face encounters that result, tend to be far more productive in many cases than any number video conferencing sessions. Well indeed there probably is an irreducible minimum of travel for optimum results. But as long ago as the 1980s in an engineering development context we took 80% out of the travel budget, and improved productivity in terms of on time completion of project stages by about 20%. Most of this achieved by use of video conferencing suites. This didn't come cheap, the vc facility ate roughly half of the travel savings in the first year, 20% thereafter. And that was pretty clunky 'had to go to the vc suite at the booked time' interaction. Now you can do it 'anywhere' for relatively little incremental investment. 2 minutes ago, Phil Parker said: ... no amount of video conferencing will take a single lorry off the roads. Extra capacity on the railway just might... But this is the age of disruptive technology. In ten years time options such auto drive truck trains on motorways, drones, airships, could be realities; and the operators of those modes will be looking over their shoulders at zumpernadling. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Phil Parker Posted September 3, 2019 Administrators Share Posted September 3, 2019 1 minute ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said: But this is the age of disruptive technology. In ten years time options such auto drive truck trains on motorways, drones, airships, could be realities; and the operators of those modes will be looking over their shoulders at zumpernadling. On that basis, we should have no new infrastructure ever - because there might always be a new "thing" that will make it obsolete. People have been predicting Maglevs and monorails for decades and we still seem very low on them. If you look at any Gerry Anderson TV programme or an old Tomorrows World, the 21st Century is a lot less advanced than anyone ever predicted. We will still need to move things from one place to another. People will still want to travel because they always have. The ever increasing use of roads and railways proves that. I can no more predict the future than you can except that it will be full of people saying "Why didn't we do this back then..." about some project or other that would, at the time of saying, have provided benefits. 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 1 minute ago, Phil Parker said: On that basis, we should have no new infrastructure ever... That's your strawman. I would favour the infrastructure investment going elsewhere is all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Phil Parker Posted September 3, 2019 Administrators Share Posted September 3, 2019 Just now, 34theletterbetweenB&D said: I would favour the infrastructure investment going elsewhere is all. And someone else would prefer the money going somewhere different to you. If we wait until everyone is happy we get no infrastructure. If you mean "upgrade existing lines" then read back on this thread to understand the logic behind HS2 from people who know what they or talking about because they do stuff professionally. Don't listen to idiot politicians or newspapers. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 3, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 3, 2019 46 minutes ago, guzzler17 said: And perhaps if a portion of the HS2 budget was spent on installing fibre broadband to the whole country then people could video-conference / skpye / or whatever more than can now and then they wouldn't need to travel. Oh and in doing so that would benefit the whole of the UK rather than those who just want to go to Leeds, Manchester, Birmingham or London. It's one heck of a job to go to Cumbria (numerous other destinations are available) for short holiday on a video 'phone. And as for business my son spends a lot of his time on Skype talking to work colleagues all over Europe and beyond but he still had to go, in full bodily form, to Madrid for most of last week to deal with matters that numerous emails and Skype conversations simply couldn't handle. No different really back in the days when I was full time working in the railway industry - it was hellish difficult to have discussions about timetable details involving three BR Regions, and even more so when it was three countries even by 'phone or email and a lot quicker to get together to do it and settle any conflicts (between trains) in person which meant that at least two parties to the conversation had to travel to get to the meeting. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 3, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 3, 2019 8 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said: That's your strawman. I would favour the infrastructure investment going elsewhere is all. Yes, but ... surely the investment ought to be going where it is most needed? So having said that which do you want - faster trains across the Pennines, or the southern end of the WCML turning away business and falling apart more rapidly, or a new local hospital? That is teh sort of choice which faces those holding national purse strings when it comes to investment and it will inevitably be decided in the end by politicians. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted September 3, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 3, 2019 I would have thought that as with seemingly everything else that's going on a fudge such as this was predictable. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
runs as required Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 Too late in my life I have become a convert to the notion of "way leaves" - corridors down which we realise movement has always been likely to occur over the centuries . I first had it demonstrated to me 20 odd years ago by Regional Planners when riding from Florence past Chiusi and Orvieto to Rome. But one of the best UK places to witness it is at Hillmorton Locks, Rugby, looking past the medieval church at the passing WCML freight and passenger trains; the M1/M6 is over the hill, DIRFT just around the corner. it seems sensible to consolidate capacity (and inter connectibility) of such corridors to accommodate evolving transportation modes and strategic networks, rather than strike out across hostile terrains. dh 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ramblin Rich Posted September 3, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 3, 2019 16 minutes ago, Phil Parker said: On that basis, we should have no new infrastructure ever - because there might always be a new "thing" that will make it obsolete. People have been predicting Maglevs and monorails for decades and we still seem very low on them. If you look at any Gerry Anderson TV programme or an old Tomorrows World, the 21st Century is a lot less advanced than anyone ever predicted. Yes, still commuting on a diesel bus when Arthur C. Clarke said we'd be living on Mars by now. Where's my jetpack? 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted September 3, 2019 Share Posted September 3, 2019 3 minutes ago, Ramblin Rich said: Yes, still commuting on a diesel bus when Arthur C. Clarke said we'd be living on Mars by now. Where's my jetpack? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-hampshire-49495637/jet-suit-british-inventor-flies-letter-to-isle-of-wight 2 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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