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Just what is the point of this thread anymore? BS upon BS, from largely trolls.

 

HS2 is needed, in some form, if not exactly what is proposed. Variations have been approved for Stage 1 and 1a. Further variations, to enable a superior HS3, have been approved for Stage 2.

 

If BoJo cancels it, then there will be sweet FA. Perhaps just a few sweeteners in the Norf.

 

But if he has the cojones to keep it in play, at whatever the cost, then UK plc benefits - not just a few business people, but a rather greater number than that, viz. previous 178 pages.

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17 minutes ago, Clearwater said:

@Mike Storey

its not certain that Johnson’s Government will outlast this thread...

I should think we can all agree on that!

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17 minutes ago, Clearwater said:

@Mike Storey

its not certain that Johnson’s Government will outlast this thread...

 

Only if the devil looks after his own.Stranger things than this have happened in the passage of history 

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1 hour ago, royaloak said:

.. routes of a similar distance or travelling time have much higher fares (however you want to measure them either pence per mile or any other method) than the one you are quoting, find me one which is cheaper into London from a similar distance or travel time, I have had a quick look and cant find anything even close to your fares.

 

Try Norwich - London — about 15% longer distance, slightly longer journey. One-way apex fare £10. 

 

Paul

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1 hour ago, Fenman said:

 

Try Norwich - London — about 15% longer distance, slightly longer journey. One-way apex fare £10. 

 

Paul

After going forward 4 weeks I managed to find one train with the £10.00 ticket available, I get the feeling there arent many of those available but there are plenty of £20.00 Apex tickets available, but the Off Peak single is £55.70 single and of course £56.70 Off Peak Return.

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1 hour ago, royaloak said:

After going forward 4 weeks I managed to find one train with the £10.00 ticket available, I get the feeling there arent many of those available but there are plenty of £20.00 Apex tickets available, but the Off Peak single is £55.70 single and of course £56.70 Off Peak Return.

 

I checked 2 months in advance and pretty much every train is offering £10 tickets.

 

That’s the point: if you travel from east Norfolk to London you can do it for £20 return. But from West Norfolk it’s *always* about double that amount (for a shorter and usually faster trip) — there is not even the smallest possibility of discounted travel. 

 

Paul

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On 06/09/2019 at 20:31, JeffP said:

 

 

 

Had to laugh... a near perfect description of socialism, then?

Nope!

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21 hours ago, Allegheny1600 said:

I find it really hard to understand your point here, please help.

The "Is your journey really necessary?" was to reduce the need for civilian travel during WW2 - you cannot possibly compare any wartime state of emergency with current lifestyles.

And, "6 years of communism" - again, we largely had a government of national unity led by one Winston Churchill, one of the leading figures who was very well aware of communism. Even the massive Labour landslide post WW2 could not be called communism - if it had been, we would be very well aware of the revolution it would have taken to get where we are now!

I'm confused!

Perhaps not communism; but as many people have pointed out the UK was run, from 1940 to 1945, as a centrally-controlled "command" state, with stuff like food and fuel rationing, and manufacturing companies virtually being told what to make. Conscription for single women as well as men was pretty universal by mid-war.

 

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13 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

Just what is the point of this thread anymore? BS upon BS, from largely trolls.

 

 

 

Not only from those not in favour of it either.

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To try and get back to HS2.  I know that a lot of the costs are due to e tra tunnelli g and other noise abatement provisions, particularly in the Chilterns.  I have seen comments elsewhere that land acquisition costs are very high.  

I wonder what proportion of the total budget is for land and property. On the Midland's sceme of 1897, the land and property costs were £1.2 million out of a budget of £3 million.  If the ratio is still true today then the land/property costs must be in the region of at least £20 billion.  

 

Jamie

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4 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

To try and get back to HS2.  I know that a lot of the costs are due to e tra tunnelli g and other noise abatement provisions, particularly in the Chilterns.  I have seen comments elsewhere that land acquisition costs are very high.  

I wonder what proportion of the total budget is for land and property. On the Midland's sceme of 1897, the land and property costs were £1.2 million out of a budget of £3 million.  If the ratio is still true today then the land/property costs must be in the region of at least £20 billion.  

 

Jamie

It would be very interesting to know that sort of thing because I'm sure that must be where some of the cost inflation has come from.  As I see it there will be some large costs going into the total from land acquisition and compensation (which in some cases I suspect is well up on current market prices, considerable extra costs due to the substitution of tunnelling for ordinary 'in the open' infrastructure, possibly some costs arising from geological uncertainties resolving themselves in the wrong direction, and additional costs (again in tunnelling and probably in power supply?) as a consequence of pushing maximum speed above 300kph.  No doubt there is also a considerable sum in there for 'environmental' costs including all sorts of bits and pieces ranging from sound deadening lineside fencing to the cost of planning lorry routes to worksites.

 

Overall I suspect that the cost of track and signalling etc has probably moved upwards by not much more than the general rate of inflation for such stuff.   Hopefully teh current review will actually produce some numbers showing where and how costs have risen.

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21 hours ago, ess1uk said:

 

The BBC report quotes an Amanda Souter [who] lives beside Old Oak Common........She said: "It should be cancelled, because there is no business case, it's costing too much, and it's out of control."

 

So that's it then, no HS2.

 

(Quite what does the BBC think the view of one member of the public brings to the debate, unless of course she's a transport planning/rail traffic expert ?)

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21 hours ago, ess1uk said:

 

The BBC report quotes an Amanda Souter [who] lives beside Old Oak Common........She said: "It should be cancelled, because there is no business case, it's costing too much, and it's out of control."

 

So that's it then, no HS2.

 

(Quite what does the BBC think the view of one member of the public brings to the debate, unless of course she's a transport planning/rail traffic expert ?)

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4 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

The BBC report quotes an Amanda Souter [who] lives beside Old Oak Common........She said: "It should be cancelled, because there is no business case, it's costing too much, and it's out of control."

 

So that's it then, no HS2.

 

(Quite what does the BBC think the view of one member of the public brings to the debate, unless of course she's a transport planning/rail traffic expert ?)

Any relation to the Stagecoach people, I wonder.....

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1 minute ago, caradoc said:

 

The BBC report quotes an Amanda Souter [who] lives beside Old Oak Common........She said: "It should be cancelled, because there is no business case, it's costing too much, and it's out of control."

 

So that's it then, no HS2.

 

(Quite what does the BBC think the view of one member of the public brings to the debate, unless of course she's a transport planning/rail traffic expert ?)

 

Good question.....until you remember we’re living in an age of populism,social media and sound bites.

 

BBC ?  Not the gold standard news flagship that it was.....sadly.

 

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36 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 No doubt there is also a considerable sum in there for 'environmental' costs including all sorts of bits and pieces ranging from sound deadening lineside fencing to the cost of planning lorry routes to worksites.

 

 

Plus the cost of employing some body to photograph every thing that the contractors touch.

Why?

To ensure that HS2 top brass have evidence to refute any claims from nimbys and environmentalists regarding allegations of wrong doing.

It will be interesting to see if the revue produces a figure for this work and the legal costs of such claims.

Small beer in the grand scheme of things, but all these costs add up. 

Bernard

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We live in a post truth world where respect for professional expertise is now derided by many and leaders who like a fag and a pint are seen as being better qualified to govern than people who might know a little about what they are talking about. In the old days it used to be said that attempting to alter reality to fit beliefs rather than modifying beliefs to accommodate reality was one of the characteristics of a cult, it is increasingly the norm. 

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15 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

Just what is the point of this thread anymore? 

 

Since this thread subsumed, and is now headed ‘HS2 under Review”, surely the point is that we ought to be able to do just that:

  1. To take stock of works so far – which has gone on through recent months of the thread, especially posting evidence of Euston site clearance work at the London end
  2. To allow RMweb members to parallel the task of the Independent Review of HS2  - read the  terms of Reference Here.
  3. I have always believed large public projects should be be constantly monitored.  It is good Governance - whatever Government may be in place. Witness the spectre of Berlin Brandenburg airport, our own airport policy vicissitudes, not least Crossrail’s secretive underground slippage,  

I have enjoyed the multiplicity of perspectives from rail modellers posting here from: 

  • Francophile converts to 50 years of TGV like yourself,
    via 
  • respected ex General Managers of our rail network like Stationmaster
  • professional engineers and planners (and even retired ones like me)
    to 
  • ex trainspotter enthusiasts, 
  • frustrated commuters and travellers,
  • last but not least: thoughtful individualistic scientists like ‘34theletterbetweenB&D’ who ought to be posting difficult questions.

I cannot believe that 'No Planning' and simple reliance upon the "Hidden Hand" of free market choice can save our planet from catastrophe.

dh

 

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12 minutes ago, runs as required said:

 

I cannot believe that 'No Planning' and simple reliance upon the "Hidden Hand" of free market choice can save our planet from catastrophe.

dh

 

 

Rather similar to Ronald Regan and Voodoo Economics, give tax cuts to the rich and they will spend the money rather than keep it! Then repeat under another President who suffers from terminal nostalgia.

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16 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

Rather similar to Ronald Regan and Voodoo Economics, give tax cuts to the rich and they will spend the money rather than keep it! Then repeat under another President who suffers from terminal nostalgia.

The 'trickle-down' school; for some reason, an overflowing urinal comes to mind....

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2 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 

Good question.....until you remember we’re living in an age of populism,social media and sound bites.

BBC ?  Not the gold standard news flagship that it was.....sadly.

 

I had call in to our local Surgery to collect my prescription renewal slip last week. "Ask them what will happen about possible shortages at the end of next month" wife called to me as I left to go 'on my messages'.

I really got an earful when I enquired about the possibility of medicines running short." Have you been listening to the BBC?" the Receptionist asked menacingly.

Well, we watched something on "Newsnight" I replied.

The whole waiting room of west Gateshead's elderly seemed to erupt in fury "Scaremongering!" "Fake News" the sickly old biddies all roared at me.

"I've always listened to the BBC since I was a kid in the war - and when I worked abroad during army coups" I said staunchly - and whistled Lilybolero at them.

i did manage to escape ... but with the Stones "Fighting in the Streets Boy!" echoing in my head.

 

I reckon the Beeb must feel very much under threat - that, I suggest, is why they've started this new malarkey of packing the news with inane 'vox pop' interviews  - which their producers must have to sieve and endlessly cogitate over so as to 'maintain balance'.

dh

 

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4 hours ago, 62613 said:

Perhaps not communism; but as many people have pointed out the UK was run, from 1940 to 1945, as a centrally-controlled "command" state, with stuff like food and fuel rationing, and manufacturing companies virtually being told what to make. Conscription for single women as well as men was pretty universal by mid-war.

 

 

And having to apply for permission to change jobs...

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10 minutes ago, runs as required said:

I reckon the Beeb must feel very much under threat - that, I suggest, is why they've started this new malarkey of packing the news with inane 'vox pop' interviews  - which their producers must have to sieve and endlessly cogitate over so as to 'maintain balance'.

dh

 

 

I remember years ago an interview on radio 4 about a treatment for some disease leading to blindness.

 

The interviewee was quoting statistics for its success. The interviewer said something along the lines of "Never mind the statistics, tell me about one person who was cured..."

 

 

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48 minutes ago, runs as required said:

I reckon the Beeb must feel very much under threat - that, I suggest, is why they've started this new malarkey of packing the news with inane 'vox pop' interviews  - which their producers must have to sieve and endlessly cogitate over so as to 'maintain balance'.

dh

I suspect that once you've interviewed all the professionals and qualified persons regarding HS2/brexit/our current governance or whatever is in the news these days it'd be quite difficult to "provide balance" in terms of showing an opposing viewpoint unless you have a worthless vox pop with some selfish, ignorant old nutter as they walk out of wetherspoons half cut. You should've seen the state of one bloke they had on the other day, slurring his words, hadnt bothered to comb his hair, rambling on about ditches and wanting a police state.

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