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7 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

But on the other hand the local council will have 10,000 new Council Tax payers contributing to the area ! In my locality a new housing scheme is nearing completion; It certainly has caused environmental damage by concreting over a field, and inconvenience to locals during construction, but people do require homes, and the new residents will provide extra customers for the local shops, bus and train services, and pupils for the schools.

 

Extra revenue from any infrastructure project or its resultant by products is worthwhile. However, local councils have not used the monies gained from a significant increase in additional retail outlets locally to improve the infrastructure around them. Result, traffic jams on roundabouts on major local dual carriageways, etc.

 

So there is little reason to expect the increased tax revenues from the new Council Taxpayers will be used effectively to improve local services.

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15 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Extra revenue from any infrastructure project or its resultant by products is worthwhile. However, local councils have not used the monies gained from a significant increase in additional retail outlets locally to improve the infrastructure around them. Result, traffic jams on roundabouts on major local dual carriageways, etc.

 

So there is little reason to expect the increased tax revenues from the new Council Taxpayers will be used effectively to improve local services.

You are overlooking the crazy way local government is funded - if an Authority suddenly went building infrastructure improvements it would, despite how much they are needed, most likely fall foul of the spending limits imposed by central government which would mean in the following year it would be financially hammered by central government. New infrastructure consequently comes about at the time or shortly after a new development with the developer contributing a significant amount of the funding assuming  the funding is justifiable and proportional to the development in question.  Alternatively local councils bid for Central Government funding for specifically designated schemes - Dept forTransport funding bids,National Productivity Investment Fund etc

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13 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

You are overlooking the crazy way local government is funded - if an Authority suddenly went building infrastructure improvements it would, despite how much they are needed, most likely fall foul of the spending limits imposed by central government which would mean in the following year it would be financially hammered by central government. New infrastructure consequently comes about at the time or shortly after a new development with the developer contributing a significant amount of the funding assuming  the funding is justifiable and proportional to the development in question.  Alternatively local councils bid for Central Government funding for specifically designated schemes - Dept forTransport funding bids,National Productivity Investment Fund etc

 

As far as I can tell the rot set in under the 1979 Conservative regime when they grabbed the business rates for central government.

 

 

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1 hour ago, runs as required said:

 But you pointed out earlier that Curzon St is convenient for Moor St, and the Snow Hill cut and fill tunnel. 

So the logic of a much cheaper through station at International (rather than Water Orton) makes sense because the conurbation can be accessed  by WM Regional Transport  from International to Snow Hill and onward at a much more localised network scale.

 

International takes you into New Street but what about someone who wants to travel SW from Birmingham?

They have to leave HS2 at the NEC/Airport/International/HS2 station, change to a local train to New Street and change again when in Birmingham.

Curzon Street (I reckon it's name might change) has been chosen as it will be integrated with the present Moor Street (the proposals have already been on show) and there will be a dedicated transfer route to New Street.

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7 hours ago, APOLLO said:

 

They're building railways like crazy over in Bangkok while we Brits argue, fart & faff around.

 

They are indeed building a lot. I was there last May & took a closer look at some of what is going on.

 

They are way behind London. What I saw last year made me wonder what London was like 120 years ago. They have a huge amount of catching up to do.

Did you know that the railway to Don Muang (the old airport) was planned & cancelled multiple times, started on the 1990s then abandoned? Now the remains have been scrapped ready to start building it again.

Their first metropolitan rail system was the BTS (Skytrain) in 1999. London's first was the Metropolitan Railway in 1863. Thailand have a lot of catching up to do & I will find it interesting to watch it grow.

 

There is still no functional metro railway west of the river It finally has a railway but it is still under testing & not expected to go into service until later this year.

I saw the outside of the new terminal at Bang Sue. It looks awesome, but they really do need it? Hua Lamphong is completely inadequate & not served by the BTS or airport link.

 

They are building quite fast there now, but have argued, stuttered, staggered a lot on the way, just like we are seeing in the UK. The rest of Thailand's railways are equally far behind Britain's & they are building out of desperation rather than forward planning.

 

HS2 won't be forward planning if it takes much longer.

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2 hours ago, melmerby said:

International takes you into New Street but what about someone who wants to travel SW from Birmingham?

They have to leave HS2 at the NEC/Airport/International/HS2 station, change to a local train to New Street and change again when in Birmingham.

 

That would be someone like me who spent twenty odd years regularly travelling Newcastle or York to Bristol along the classic old Midland mainline. It raises an aspect I haven't seen addressed so far: through journeys that may partly involve HST 2,3&4 new builds and existing (upgraded) lines .

 

If they are going to be separately "branded" and ticketed entities, it is going to be a nightmare plotting journeys from anywhere north and west of say the new Oxbridge line to anywhere north and east of Brum. 

So travelling around the future carbon neutral "Northern Powerhouse" could still be spent wondering "Do I actually have the right ticket for this service?"

Wife's long dead Uncle Loftus was able to "Let theTrain Take the Strain" with a 'Contract' for the 'club train':  stumbling aboard at Manchester Vic. already half pickled, arriving home completely blotto!

dh

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I'm late to this debate so apologies if these personal ramblings have been covered.

 

In terms of HS routes, HS1 is just that (1st Generation) whereas European HST routes with their dedicated lines are clearly 2nd Gen., to a greater or lesser extent depending on their age and speed ratings

 

Experience from Japan suggests that for speeds higher than 320km on an existing 2nd Gen. network it's better to switch technologies - to Maglev.

(why? they are switching when they have a perfectly good system that's nearing saturation at current speeds, rather than squeezing more onto the existing lines by running at progressively higher speeds)

 

As current HS1 does the trip London Birmingham already in approx 1Hr 20 min, I'm struggling to see the investment return from shaving at most 20-30min off the current trip running at 300+kph in moving to 2nd Gen. technology, even if it were at cutting edge in terms of speed. Any investment probably would be ill suited to further technology advances (to maglev).

 

It is (IMO) a sad reflection of opportunities lost, that in the late 1960s while I was at Uni at Imperial College, London, Prof Eric Laithwaite gave us a demo of his Maglev "War of the Worlds" Machine at the H G Wells Soc. He claimed that for a couple of seconds he would be drawing more current than the whole site! It was a time when optimism in exploiting innovation still existed. Maybe now's time to skip a technology generation rather than play expensive catch up???

 

 

 

 

Edited by BWsTrains
tidying layout
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I have not trawled all through this thread, but has anyone thought that the delay in % terms is pretty close to the uplift of costs in % terms? This of course depends on when you define the start of the long sad process. But one thing for sure delay = cost increase, someone needs to get the varying Ministers to understand this before they call for yet another review or pause. 

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1 hour ago, BWsTrains said:

I'm late to this debate so apologies if these personal ramblings have been covered.

 

In terms of HS routes, HS1 is just that (1st Generation) whereas European HST routes with their dedicated lines are clearly 2nd Gen., to a greater or lesser extent depending on their age and speed ratings

 

Experience from Japan suggests that for speeds higher than 320km on an existing 2nd Gen. network it's better to switch technologies - to Maglev.

(why? they are switching when they have a perfectly good system that's nearing saturation at current speeds, rather than squeezing more onto the existing lines by running at progressively higher speeds)

 

As current HS1 does the trip London Birmingham already in approx 1Hr 20 min, I'm struggling to see the investment return from shaving at most 20-30min off the current trip running at 300+kph in moving to 2nd Gen. technology, even if it were at cutting edge in terms of speed. Any investment probably would be ill suited to further technology advances (to maglev).

 

It is (IMO) a sad reflection of opportunities lost, that in the late 1960s while I was at Uni at Imperial College, London, Prof Eric Laithwaite gave us a demo of his Maglev "War of the Worlds" Machine at the H G Wells Soc. He claimed that for a couple of seconds he would be drawing more current than the whole site! It was a time when optimism in exploiting innovation still existed. Maybe now's time to skip a technology generation rather than play expensive catch up???

 

 

 

 

You have some catching up to do! HS1 runs from London (St Pancras to Folkestone).

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I think you knew what he meant! I agree with him that the time gain on the London to Birmingham run is not worth the extra investment for the extra costs of the high speed. I've long argued that if it is truly about capacity then a conventional line with more stations and high speed point-work into and out of them with stock that is compatable with the rest of the network and so could carry on their journeys without forcing the passenger to change trains/stations would make more sense than a dedicated self contained super high speed line that is being proposed.  

 

It makes me laugh when they say that Curzon Street will be "integrated" with Moor Street, they are not exactly close together, especially for people with luggage or the disabled! Furthermore most people changing trains in Brum go to places not served by the Moor Street/Snow Hill lines, New Street is the main interchange and that is even further away. From what I can see travellers from the West Midlands wanting to use HS2 will be faced with a trip in by local railways (if they are lucky!) and then a walk to the HS2 station. If you are only going to London then it would make more sense to just carry on from either Snow Hill or New Street and stomach the extra 15/20 minutes the journey would take on the "old" lines.

 

The whole thing has been ill thought out and seems even more like a vanity project as time goes on. We are a small island and 250mph trains are not needed for journeys from London to the Midlands and NW or Leeds. Maybe for journeys to Scotland but is there the demand for a new line which would cost even more than this short stretch when so much work could be done on the existing network to increase capacity and speeds with that money? Is a saving of 10 minutes to an hour worth it? Personally I believe the answer is no. We don't have to keep up with mainland Europe where distances travelled are much greater and justify the higher speeds. It just seems like "they've got it so we have to have it, and better" without any thoughts for the true needs of the country.

 

It's time the Human Race relaxed a bit and stopped thinking that we need to be where we are going by yesterday (at the latest!!)... Maybe even save a bit of fuel to help save the planet at the same time!

Edited by Hobby
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43 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

...It makes me laugh when they say that Curzon Street will be "integrated" with Moor Street, they are not exactly close together......   

 

 

The front entrance of Curzon St. station is literally 150 to 200 metres from the frontage of Moor St. Station on Moor St. Queensway.

If you are thinking of the old, preserved Curzon St. Station building, that's located towards the far end of the new HS2 station and way down the length of the long platforms.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

The front entrance of Curzon St. station is literally 150 to 200 metres from the frontage of Moor St. Station on Moor St. Queensway.

If you are thinking of the old, preserved Curzon St. Station building, that's located towards the far end of the new HS2 station and way down the length of the long platforms.

 

 

I'm not sure of the propsed opening dates but isn't Curzin Street due to be served by a new route on the tram system so a si gle tram Journey to New Street should be available by the tine HS2 opens.

 

Jamie

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The plan includes the tram system running to and under the new station.

There's a local transport hub for buses and taxis along the side elevation, towards the old station building area.

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39 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

I'm not sure of the propsed opening dates but isn't Curzin Street due to be served by a new route on the tram system so a si gle tram Journey to New Street should be available by the tine HS2 opens.

 

Jamie

The Midland Metro Alliance has been stopped, by the Government, from building the Eastside extension until after HS2 is completed.

The intention was to have the line open in time for the opening, which would have given access to the new station from below.

 

Edited by melmerby
Wrong direction!
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37 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

The front entrance of Curzon St. station is literally 150 to 200 metres from the frontage of Moor St. Station on Moor St. Queensway.

 

Then several hundred yards extra walking at each end to get on and off the trains... Still not convenient for many people...  Adding in a tram trip as well for New Street is laughable if it wasn't that people actually think it's valid reasoning.

 

Once Chiltern started running direct trains from London to Stourbridge and Kidderminster any need to get off and switch stations in Birmingham went out of the window for many people. It's not convenient and the time gained by switching to a Pendo isn't worth the few minutes gained in journey time rather than just stay on the train you are already on. My views on that do not change and why i still don't see the need for HS2 in it's current guise.. 

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1 hour ago, Hobby said:

It makes me laugh when they say that Curzon Street will be "integrated" with Moor Street, they are not exactly close together,

This outline drawing shows the frontages will adjoin each other:

birmingham-moor-street-vision-3_498x280.

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14 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

Then several hundred yards extra walking at each end to get on and off the trains... Still not convenient for many people...  Adding in a tram trip as well for New Street is laughable if it wasn't that people actually think it's valid reasoning.

 

Once Chiltern started running direct trains from London to Stourbridge and Kidderminster any need to get off and switch stations in Birmingham went out of the window for many people. It's not convenient and the time gained by switching to a Pendo isn't worth the few minutes gained in journey time rather than just stay on the train you are already on. My views on that do not change and why i still don't see the need for HS2 in it's current guise.. 

I take it that you have not used  a major airport recently.

 

Come and visit  Hemel or any of the towns on the south end of the WCML and see why HS2 is needed.

 

Bernard

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17 minutes ago, melmerby said:

This outline drawing shows the frontages will adjoin each other:

 

 

It looks a similar set up to Kings Cross and St Pancras, with Kings Cross Midland around the corner!

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26 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

Then several hundred yards extra walking at each end to get on and off the trains... Still not convenient for many people...  Adding in a tram trip as well for New Street is laughable if it wasn't that people actually think it's valid reasoning.

 

Once Chiltern started running direct trains from London to Stourbridge and Kidderminster any need to get off and switch stations in Birmingham went out of the window for many people. It's not convenient and the time gained by switching to a Pendo isn't worth the few minutes gained in journey time rather than just stay on the train you are already on. My views on that do not change and why i still don't see the need for HS2 in it's current guise.. 

People have to walk from the end of a train now, how is it different or does New Street have moving travelators now on the platforms that I am not aware of.

 

I would also imagine most people using the HS2 into Birmingham are going to the City Centre and not somewhere else, why would you get HS2 to Birmingham and then pop over to New Street to get a Cross Country south again or east?

 

One thing the Curzon Street station will do that Moor Street hasn't is see the redevelopment of the surrounding area which isn't that nice at present, I wouldn't want to be there at night for example.

 

HS2 into Birmingham will compete with Chiltern as the WCML does now but offer capacity on the southern WCML for more stoppers beyond Rugby, as HS2 ploughs north it will open up further capacity later on.

 

I'm not a fan of the High Speed element of HS2 as I'm not convinced that isn't expensive vanity, but from a capacity perspective it is needed.

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10 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I take it that you have not used  a major airport recently.

 

So that means it's OK then.This is not an airport, Many people complain about changing trains, often citing New Street as an example of why it's a bad thing, yet New Street is actually quite compact. Here we have a railway where people are not only being encouraged to change trains, but also change stations! Promotors of HS2 can't have it both ways, it's either one of the other. The line is being mooted because the we are told the Midlands to London rail network is at breaking point and needs more capacity but the best solution to that is a separate line which is connected to the existing network and trains can join with and use the existing network to reduce unnecessary changes. This is not what the proposed line does. If you look at traffic flows most long rail journeys (i.e. outside the local area) don't start in a City Centre. HS2 does nothing to assist those travellers but actually makes it more complicated unless they are going on from HS2 onto HS1 and the continent, but we are being told that the issue is capacity into London, not from people travelling on from London who are already served by the Airlines and local airports.

 

I am all for more capacity, what i am not in favour of is unnecessary expense of high speed rail at the expense of more inconvenience to the traveller and isn't needed on what is actually a short journey already. 

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13 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

People have to walk from the end of a train now, how is it different or does New Street have moving travelators now on the platforms that I am not aware of.

 

I would also imagine most people using the HS2 into Birmingham are going to the City Centre

 

Nowhere near the same distances they will have to walk to get to HS2.

 

Why would you imagine that? I suspect that is the argument given by the promoters of HS2 but it clashes with the "capacity" reasons given to build the line in the first place. I suspect that if you did a survey of all passengers currently using Avanti, LNW and Chiltern to get into London from the Midlands you'd find that they don't live in the city centre but have to commute in, or catch the train either before or after the train runs through Birmingham. For them, as I've said, there is little incentive to change trains/stations in Birmingham, the time saving isn't worth the hassle. If you were carrying on to mainland Europe using Eurostar then there is a valid reason, but that's not why we are told the line is needed. 

 

 

Let me just clarify something, I am NOT against the new line, I agree it's needed. What i don't agree with is the way it's being designed and built. What we need is an extra line that compliments and can be used by existing trains not a stand alone line that is of very little benefit for most people who want to travel from the Midlands to London.

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24 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

People have to walk from the end of a train now, how is it different or does New Street have moving travelators now on the platforms that I am not aware of.

 

I would also imagine most people using the HS2 into Birmingham are going to the City Centre and not somewhere else, why would you get HS2 to Birmingham and then pop over to New Street to get a Cross Country south again or east?

As a heavy user of tube and train in London it is clear to me that any benefit in train journey time can be lost in long walks to interchange. Walking is a key element in journey time and cannot be ignored. TfL clearly factor this into their journey planner - is it factored in HS2 door to door timings, or is HS2 more like Ryanair without the cheaper fares?!

 

To suggest say a 9 minute saving on a rail journey but it being followed by a 9 minute additional walk to reach a key destination (ie the actual city centre or alternative transport) is no time saving at all.

 

There are some very long walks between lines in some tube stations (esp Jubilee line linking to older lines for example. This impacts on overall journey time (and energy required), careful planning avoiding long walks to reach a destination.

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1 hour ago, Hobby said:

 

Then several hundred yards extra walking at each end to get on and off the trains... Still not convenient for many people...  Adding in a tram trip as well for New Street is laughable if it wasn't that people actually think it's valid reasoning.

 

Once Chiltern started running direct trains from London to Stourbridge and Kidderminster any need to get off and switch stations in Birmingham went out of the window for many people. It's not convenient and the time gained by switching to a Pendo isn't worth the few minutes gained in journey time rather than just stay on the train you are already on. My views on that do not change and why i still don't see the need for HS2 in it's current guise.. 

 

The solution is to demolish the entire centre of Birmingham and start again. However, this isn't an option. Even closing New Street for a few months wasn't an option so whatever you end up with has to be a compromise trying to deal with a vast number of variables. Curzon Street is not far from Moor Street or even New Street. I've walked further in airports. Curzon Street also sits in an area with lots of potential for development which I'd expect to improve even faster than the dump around St Pancras has over the last decade thanks to the arrival of Channel Tunnel trains.

 

If I was travelling from Stourbridge to London I'd stay on the Chiltern Train for a negligible time difference. However, not all towns are joined by direct services (Including Stourbridge, you take the PPM to the junction from the town) so changing trains is a fact of life.

 

Personally, I expect HS2 to be cancelled. After that, there will never, ever be any serious rail building in the UK. To expensive, too controversial and taking longer than the 2 weeks any politician can see ahead. I'd even go so far as to say I don't expect there to be any significant infrastructure building in this country again.

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10 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

The solution is to demolish the entire centre of Birmingham and start again. 

 

If I was travelling from Stourbridge to London I'd stay on the Chiltern Train for a negligible time difference. However, not all towns are joined by direct services (Including Stourbridge, you take the PPM to the junction from the town) so changing trains is a fact of life.

 

Personally, I expect HS2 to be cancelled. 

 

They tried that already in the 60s!

 

Again I'd point out that most people don't live in town and city centres. In Stourbridge they commute by car to the Junction which has two very large car parks (one recently extended). Doing the same for Birmingham centre is a non-starter on so many levels!

 

I hope not, but I do hope that it is changed so that it integrates better into the existing network rather than the stand alone line that is being proposed.

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16 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

But it did go downhill a bit last year when Ian Allan closed. 

 

Would agree with you on that one !

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