HS2 under review

[lmsforever]

Could I put a few points about HS2 ,its a brilliant idea but I will not be able to access any services even though it will pass less th a half mile from my house ,there is a perfectly acceptable service by Chiltern and its on a bus route that passes my area,.People in Aylesbury Quainton ,Bicester,Winslow want access to Milton Keynes and the WCML and a range of services that stop at a multitude of towns speed is not everything but connectivity is important HS2 only provides a fast connection to London or Brum and then you have to change onto other services.This line is taking money from the rest of the network signaling needs to be uprated so as to provide for denser services on existing lines.This money could have been used to provide new trains espicialy in the north and were is the money coming from for the Gretat Western electrification or more importantly the Midland line upgrade and electrification .I expect that many of you will call me a NIMBY but how many of you live along the route or will be able to use this line if it is ever built,if things aregoing badly at next election HS2 will be stopped ,hey presto more votes. This and all other projects are at the mercy of polaticians whims so dont get exited lads.

[The Stationmaster]

I've just re-read through this thread after coming back from Bourg St Maurice on the Eurostar Ski Train last weekend. For those of you that don't know where Bourg is, it's in the Alps south of Lake Geneva and relatively close to the French/Italian border.

 

The comments about missing out London and starting from a point other than London are easily dealt with as the Ski Train amply demonstrates how easy that is as it misses out Paris completely. The platforms are fenced ott at Bourg and you go through the same baggage scanning as you do at St Pancras, Gare Du Nord, Brussels or Lille, but there is no UK passport inspection. The same arrangements apply at Moutiers. Admittedly, boarding is slower at Bourg, but there are only 2 Eurostar trains per week, Saturday morning and Saturday evening leaving Bourg, so bag scanning facilities are limited.

 

UK Customs board the train at Lille and pass through the train inspecting passports between there and Ashford.

 

So all that needs to happen is to apply those self same procedures at Birmingham, or Manchester or Nottingham, or Leeds or wherever else you want to start on an HS2-HS1-Chunnel route to Europe and you have a viable system. If loadings are sufficient on services starting north of London, then there is no reason why Stratford, Ebbsfleet, Ashford or even Lille shouldn't be the point where connection is made between HS2 trains from North of London and HS1 trains from St Pancras, the same way that Quantas use Singapore as an interchange for their flights to Australia from different starting points in Europe. I now live north of London and the idea of catching a Eurostar on the ECML and going through to Paris without stopping in London is very appealing!

 

The bag scanning is a complication and I suppose it is justified because the Eurostars go below sea level, but so do the Bakerloo, Jubilee, Northern and Victoria Lines in London. There is no similar luggage scanning for the Lotschberg base tunnel nor the Simplon tunnel, and as far a I know there won't be any on the Gotthard Base Tunnel either when that opens. A bomb going off in one of those tunnels with the risk of fire would be as lethal as one in the Chunnel. I hesitate to say that securty checks are unnecessary, especially after 7/7 and the Madrid train bombings, but if that requirement were removed it would simplify check in and boarding significantly. if we also joined the Schengen agreement it would make it as easy as boarding any internal service.

 

 

Two points -

1. On train passport checks present very few problems provided that the train operators are prepared to meet the costs of such checks (and provide the necessary on train facilities such as accommodation for the Immigration Officers and suitable- secure - 'accommodation' for any persons those officers might detain. Eurostar sets have that provision but will the new trains now on order be similarly equipped - I suspect they won't. The reason Eurostar ended standard on-train checks on the 'Three Capitals' service was simple - it saved the company a very large amount of money and that had a positive impact on the bottom line. And somehow I can't see the present UK Govt signing up to Schengen

2. As far as security checks are concerned they are required by Act of Parliament and primary legislation would be needed to revoke the need for them however as the Chunnel is regarded as being particularly attractive to terrorists because it is so well known I think it would be a very brave politician who decided to reduce the security requirements in this day & age.

[WR Tim]

Could I put a few points about HS2 ,its a brilliant idea but I will not be able to access any services even though it will pass less th a half mile from my house ,there is a perfectly acceptable service by Chiltern and its on a bus route that passes my area,.People in Aylesbury Quainton ,Bicester,Winslow want access to Milton Keynes and the WCML and a range of services that stop at a multitude of towns speed is not everything but connectivity is important HS2 only provides a fast connection to London or Brum and then you have to change onto other services.This line is taking money from the rest of the network signaling needs to be uprated so as to provide for denser services on existing lines.This money could have been used to provide new trains espicialy in the north and were is the money coming from for the Gretat Western electrification or more importantly the Midland line upgrade and electrification .I expect that many of you will call me a NIMBY but how many of you live along the route or will be able to use this line if it is ever built,if things aregoing badly at next election HS2 will be stopped ,hey presto more votes. This and all other projects are at the mercy of polaticians whims so dont get exited lads.

 

Yes, you've said all that before, and you've also had it pointed out to you before that, as HS2 will take most of the express services off the lower end of the WCML, the service capacity, and timings for the local and regional trains in your area will improve as much, if not more than they would if major upgrade work was done on the current line instead. Basically, you will benefit just as much as the people travelling from London to Birmingham.

[Suzie]

There are very few trains nowadays that start off full at their first station and stay full all the way to the destination, and it appears to be policy that trains run all the way without a change whether it is sensible to do so or not, so there is no reason to suspect that this cannot be done with international services as well.

 

An international service from the far north (Glasgow International?) should be able to pick up at (I am making up some names here) Manchester and Liverpool Parkway, Birmingham Parkway, Old Oak Interchange, Stratford International, Ebbsfleet, and Ashford International, and it really ought to be full by then for the core part of the journey. It should help with removing Ebbsfleet and Ashford stops on the core St Pancras - Paris services and thereby speed them up. I don't think that passengers from the north are going to quibble about a couple of stops in Kent if it means avoiding an hour and a half detour via St Pancras!

 

St Pancras might be the interchange of choice for people from London and the south of London as well as ECML, but anyone from the west and Wales will rather be getting on at Old Oak Interchange rather than playing sardines on Crossrail and I am sure that a premium can and will be charged for the convenience. Even the WCML south of Rugby can have a couple of platforms close enough to Old Oak interchange to be about as near as Stratford Great Eastern is to Stratford international.

 

Once the capital cost of buying a train has been borne, the cost of running it varies little by how long it is. A 400M international uses one slot the same as a 4-car EMU.

 

Even if HS2 is all we get it should be enough to make north of London services fast enough and attractive enough to be commercially viable. It is the messing about in London that makes International rail travel unattractive for anyone not starting their journey from London.

 

 

 

 

 

[phil-b259]

What is stoping through services is the UKs very strict border controls, plain and simple and those will not change unless the UK and Ireland join the Schengen area (which means having compulsory national identity cards by the way) which has the same chance of being acepted by the voters as hell freezing over.

 

In the UK Domestic and international passengers are not allowed to mix in the unlike France & Belgium. This was what allowed illegal imaagrents to board the trains in Paris with a TGV valid ticket and no passport to Calais only for them to destroy their a ticket en-route then claim asylum at Waterloo. Eventually the French changed their policy slightly and now require all Eurostar ticket holders to show their passport or their state issued identity card before bording, however the fact remains domestic and international passengers are not seperated.

 

Regular direct international services from other parts of the UK will quite simply make a big financal loss if they cannot cary domestic passengers as far as London, there simply are not enough potental passengers to come close to filling a Eurostar sized train. OK you could reverse at St Pancrass and top up the train with London passengers but that still wouldn't make the excercise profitable in the long run when the acountants crunch the extra wear and tear, number of drivers, increase in rolling stock required, etc (although I do conceeed that runing a half length set then joining it to another at St Pancras would improve the viability slightly).

 

(By the way for the purposes of the above I do not consider the Ski trains as regular direct services. They serve a niche market, only run two days a week for a limited part of the year and cannot be compared to a regular daily service of several trains)

[phil-b259]

There are very few trains nowadays that start off full at their first station and stay full all the way to the destination, and it appears to be policy that trains run all the way without a change whether it is sensible to do so or not

 

Not so as the shrinking cross country network shows. Remember through services to Brighton and various other places being withdrawn a few years ago so as to release more stock for the core route or what about the withdrawl of Virgin services from Blackpool or most recently the removal of most East Coast services to Glasgow to free up more trains for ECML services.

 

An international service from the far north (Glasgow International?) should be able to pick up at (I am making up some names here) Manchester and Liverpool Parkway, Birmingham Parkway, Old Oak Interchange, Stratford International, Ebbsfleet, and Ashford International, and it really ought to be full by then for the core part of the journey. It should help with removing Ebbsfleet and Ashford stops on the core St Pancras - Paris services and thereby speed them up. I don't think that passengers from the north are going to quibble about a couple of stops in Kent if it means avoiding an hour and a half detour via St Pancras!

 

Why would any sane person take the train from Glasgow to France when they can jump on a low cost airline flight for a 10th of the cost of a train ticket and get there hours earlier. The same goes for Manchester and to a lesser extent Liverpool.Low cost airlines have ensured that for business travel (and outside of comuting, thats where the money is made in the rail industry) beyond the 3-4hour golden window rail cannot compete with air.

 

 

Once the capital cost of buying a train has been borne, the cost of running it varies little by how long it is.

 

Wrong!

 

Think of a car, OK so two people might buy the same car but unless they are doing exactly the same millage each year, drive on the same roads, in the same weather, go to the same garage for servicing, etc the running costs will be very different. Its the same with trains, for example Javlins run at a lower top speed (less aerodynamic drag so less energy consumption - don't forget train companies still have to pay for the electricity based on how much they expect to use), are lighter than channel tunnel complient trains (less kit to lug around, lower fire prevention standards etc)so their overall runing costs are less.

 

 

Even if HS2 is all we get it should be enough to make north of London services fast enough and attractive enough to be commercially viable. It is the messing about in London that makes International rail travel unattractive for anyone not starting their journey from London.

 

As even the Government's own report says, regular daily through services will not become comercially viable (remember Eurostar unlike domestic franchised opperators does not get any government subsidy) untill HS2 reaches Manchester / Leeds and even then that still depends on what happens to the avation industry.

[Pacific231G]

What is stoping through services is the UKs very strict border controls, plain and simple and those will not change unless the UK and Ireland join the Schengen area (which means having compulsory national identity cards by the way) which has the same chance of being acepted by the voters as hell freezing over.

 

Yet in the days when controls were strict on most European borders there were still plenty of through trains. All that happened was that passports and luggage were checked at the border crossing itself by police and customs who came through the train often between the two stations either side of the frontier so passengers not crossing the border simply weren't affected. Even trains that crossed the iron curtain were able to mix domestic and international passengers and those were far stricter borders even than the UK.

[black and decker boy]

I fall into both camps with this subject. I am born & bred on the Pennines so know how much benefit the midlands & north will get from this link, however, I live in the Chilterns so know how much ill feeling there is to the line. As a Civil Engineer, I know we have the capability to make the lines passage through the Chilterns & Warwickshire unobtrusive (this just needs to be pushed through the consultation) and also that some of the objections being posted are totally ficticious. An example is a claim in our village mag that the construction works need a 5 mile wide corridor. This is total nonsense. At most, we (as Civil Engineers) would get 50m either side, more likley 10m or even 5m width either side of the rail footprint.

 

On balance, I vote yes with caveats.

[Re6/6]

All that we are ever hearing at the moment is NIMBYs, NIMBYs, NIMBYs. When is the industry ever going to get a grip and start putting forward its case with vigour? We hear and read absolutely nothing from the railway PR machine (TOCs, infrastructure etc). The way things are going the argument is at risk of being lost, judging by the 'political' constituency clout these opposition groups have got. Ironically, it is the Secretary of State for Transport Hammond is the only one who is being vocally positive about the scheme. How long might it be before he bows to pressure from his vocal supporters in his political heartland? Come on 'The Railway' get your a*ses into gear or this could be lost.

[Edwin_m]

Yet in the days when controls were strict on most European borders there were still plenty of through trains. All that happened was that passports and luggage were checked at the border crossing itself by police and customs who came through the train often between the two stations either side of the frontier so passengers not crossing the border simply weren't affected. Even trains that crossed the iron curtain were able to mix domestic and international passengers and those were far stricter borders even than the UK.

 

True, but this wouldn't allow for the issue of luggage screening which we appear to be lumbered with for trains using the Tunnel whether we like it or not. Any passenger boarding a train heading for the tunnel would have to undergo some form of screening in case they left an item on the train or passed it to a passenger making an international journey. I suspect the need for photo ID is part of the same process, "security" being deemed to include knowing and verifying the names of all passengers just as it now is on domestic flights. Including the security checks in a change of train at Euston-St Pancras or Old Oak is probably the closest we will get to a seamless international journey from further north or west.

 

As others have posted, low cost airlines also make a mockery of the finances of any longer-distance train service international or otherwise, for business travellers above a 3hr rail journey time and for many leisure travellers too (although probably at a longer time threshold). It may be argued that the tax on jet fuel and other aviation activities should be very much higher to reflect environmental damage, but the likes of Ryanair are now very much entrenched in our society and I doubt any politician would wish to be seen denying the general public their right to a cheap holiday.

[The Stationmaster]

What is stoping through services is the UKs very strict border controls, plain and simple and those will not change unless the UK and Ireland join the Schengen area (which means having compulsory national identity cards by the way) which has the same chance of being acepted by the voters as hell freezing over.

 

 

In the UK Domestic and international passengers are not allowed to mix in the unlike France & Belgium. This was what allowed illegal imaagrents to board the trains in Paris with a TGV valid ticket and no passport to Calais only for them to destroy their a ticket en-route then claim asylum at Waterloo. Eventually the French changed their policy slightly and now require all Eurostar ticket holders to show their passport or their state issued identity card before bording, however the fact remains domestic and international passengers are not seperated.

 

Even if we join Schengen that will not overcome the Chunnel security issue (which is the main reason the passenger mix is not allowed in the UK; the French took a slightly different attitude but that was probably more for covenience in view of the small numbers travelling to Calais Frethun and in any case they are subject to the full Chunnel security regime even if not going through the Tunnel). Incidentally, and unless things have changed again, UK Immigration Officers carry out full passport etc examination on boarding passengers at the paris end because of the 'illegals' problem.

 

 

Regular direct international services from other parts of the UK will quite simply make a big financal loss if they cannot cary domestic passengers as far as London, there simply are not enough potental passengers to come close to filling a Eurostar sized train. OK you could reverse at St Pancrass and top up the train with London passengers but that still wouldn't make the excercise profitable in the long run when the acountants crunch the extra wear and tear, number of drivers, increase in rolling stock required, etc (although I do conceeed that runing a half length set then joining it to another at St Pancras would improve the viability slightly).

 

People seem to forever want to re-invent Regional Eurostar and I'm not entirely sure why? The market simply does not exist and the reasons are amply explained in other recent posts. Birmingham might just about be a possibility once HS 2 is open (if it ever is) but any further north is, I reckon, likely to be a dead loss for anything but a limited service. The most attractive destinations - believe it or not - are likely to be York and Edinburgh because of the tourist trade and because a lot of tourist traffic is not so time sensitive and is amenable to rail travel as 'an adventure' or for greater perceived comfort and convenience, and that would work in both directions. For business travel (which is the best from a revenue viewpoint of course) you can basically forget it unless air travel becomes far more expensive and difficult - business folk, particularly British business folk, do not like sitting on a train for 4-5 hours when they would only have to endure an aeroplane for an hour. On total time rail can be time competitive, even with changes, but it still lacks the perceived attraction of a short flight time.

But even then the traffic is likely to be so 'thin' that it would not justify daily trains and it would also be fairly seasonal, and hence unduly expensive to resource. Running over much longer distances plays havoc with set utilisation while, Phil notes above, it greatly increase staffing costs - you don't even need to be an accountant - to work out those sort of numbers. It's all too easy to forget that Regional Eurostar was a political sop to 'include' the Regions in the Chunnel effect and not just leave it as a 'London & South East' thing. And once the privateers became involved they quickly concluded that it had no commercial basis whatsoever, despite their various attempts to find one.

 

 

(By the way for the purposes of the above I do not consider the Ski trains as regular direct services. They serve a niche market, only run two days a week for a limited part of the year and cannot be compared to a regular daily service of several trains)

 

Exactly so - and a lot of non-core longer UK routes would have to be similar. But the problem then is that they would all most likely be looking for the train resources on the same days of the week and even Eurostars can't be in two places at the same time

[Ron Ron Ron]

An international service from the far north (Glasgow International?) should be able to pick up at (I am making up some names here) Manchester and Liverpool Parkway, Birmingham Parkway, Old Oak Interchange, Stratford International, Ebbsfleet, and Ashford International, and it really ought to be full by then for the core part of the journey......

Based on that, the train will have to run 85 - 90% empty from Glasgow to Manchester, 70 - 80% empty from Manchester, 50 - 70% empty from Birmingham to London OOCI.

All using expensive paths and with expensive purchase/lease and running costs.

It makes no sense at all.

Far better to cut out the loss making Glasgow, Manchester and probably Birmingham services from that route and fill up the seats with passengers boarding at OOCI/Stratford/Ebbsfleet, or better still from SPI.

 

Reinforcing what Mike has just said, where are the passengers going to come from?

Eurostar services tapped into an already very strong market between London and Paris (once the busiest air route in Europe and still a very busy air route despite the success of Eurostar taking the Lion's share). EU related traffic between our capital and Brussels also provides a commercial market, even though services have been reduced.

UK regional demand for travel to these centres is a mere fraction of that, so how could the market demand grow to the levels required to make such services viable with a decent frequency of service to suit passenger demand?

Rather than tapping into a very strong market and then growing market share as the overall market increases (existing Eurostar services), for Regional services the operator will be faced with having to create increased market demand out of thin air. No doubt the presence of the services will attract some additional custom, but to what extent is questionable at best and a significant business risk. On ticket price and travel time everything is going against it too.

(It's not just low cost airline prices either. Full fare airlines have a significant share of the Regional air market to near European destinations).

 

The problem here is that these issues only apply on the WCML and GWML routes. The ECML and MML are already well connected to the cross channel international services through the SPI and KX hub.

If the HS2 London termini were connected directly to SPI, the answer would be very easy.

For a start, short of demolishing the British Library (next door to SPI) and rebuilding the new Euston station there, a people mover style shuttle link between the new Euston terminus to SPI, operating at a 5/10 minute frequency with a transit time measured in a few minutes, would be a far cheaper and economically sensible alternative to inevitably loss making direct international services from the regions.

 

 

See how close together these stations are. (click Birdseye view)

[Glorious NSE]

For a start, short of demolishing the British Library (next door to SPI) and rebuilding the new Euston station there, a people mover style shuttle link between the new Euston terminus to SPI, operating at a 5/10 minute frequency with a transit time measured in a few minutes, would be a far cheaper and economically sensible alternative to inevitably loss making direct international services from the regions.

 

Or just a travelator. It can't be any further away than some of the airport gates are from the main building - and linking the lot into one big "Euston Road Hub" would have other connectional advantages beyond Eurostar.

[dibber25]

There is alot of opposition in Coventry and around Warwickshire, either due to the nearest station being at the airport (which is better located for Coventry's residents than Brummies, and concerns of how the line would damage the fresh water table in Warwickshire. Then there are the inevitable Nimby's whose property will be directly affected, as it would if an airport, motorway or conventional line was being built. Although I can sympathise with them, we don't own this land and are merely custodians of it for future generations, which means serving them well. HS2 is more important in this respect than some farmer's B&B buiness.

 

Yes, but you can't expect the farmer to agree with you. I spent a bit of time looking at the NIMBY aspect around Wendover. While I fully support the need for HS2, I wouldn't if I owned one of the houses that's going to be bulldozed. Especially as, in some cases, moving the railway a few yards one way or another might make it unneccessary to demolish property. However, I don't have much sympathy for the 'spoiling the countryside/view' brigade. They already have a motorway and a pylon line which do far more harm to the 'view'.

CHRIS LEIGH

[Glorious NSE]

While I fully support the need for HS2, I wouldn't if I owned one of the houses that's going to be bulldozed. Especially as, in some cases, moving the railway a few yards one way or another might make it unneccessary to demolish property.

 

The frustrating thing is that nothing seems to be being discussed in those terms - the "against" side seems determined to think up all sorts of absurd claims to put people off instead of arguing for such practical changes - I don't think they do themselves any favours from a credibility standpoint.

[298]

Yes, but you can't expect the farmer to agree with you. I spent a bit of time looking at the NIMBY aspect around Wendover. While I fully support the need for HS2, I wouldn't if I owned one of the houses that's going to be bulldozed. Especially as, in some cases, moving the railway a few yards one way or another might make it unneccessary to demolish property. However, I don't have much sympathy for the 'spoiling the countryside/view' brigade. They already have a motorway and a pylon line which do far more harm to the 'view'.

CHRIS LEIGH

 

Last december, the local BBC TV news made a big deal about the route going straight through a farmhouse, with the usual "it's a sucessful B&B" and it's 250 years old lines form the owners. It might be possible to move that part of the route to the building sits right next to the railways boundary, but why not just move the building to a different part of the farm and allow the business to continue, rather than let the NIMBY's bleat on without thinking of viable alternatives...?

[lmsforever]

Its not a motorway at Wendover its a two lane bypass ,perhaps a tunnel here is the answer as it is the actual area for the route to pass through is quite a narrow as is the route between the lane up to the Hale and Wendover this is a challenge for the builders.Will the units built for HS2 be able to go on to Scotland etc or will changes be necesary can a higher speed Pendolino be built if not the units will not earn their keep.If the the route is buried in cuttings this will mitigate the intrusion and will make it more acceptable,as you see I am not totaly against the line but I still think expenditure like this should be scrutinised thoroughly with alternative rail projects considered as well .

[Kris]

Last december, the local BBC TV news made a big deal about the route going straight through a farmhouse, with the usual "it's a sucessful B&B" and it's 250 years old lines form the owners. It might be possible to move that part of the route to the building sits right next to the railways boundary, but why not just move the building to a different part of the farm and allow the business to continue, rather than let the NIMBY's bleat on without thinking of viable alternatives...?

 

I wonder if the farmer would want to have the building moved when it is likely that it would still be close enough to the line for the trains to be noticeable. I bet the B&B would be less viable as well.

 

 

[Edwin_m]

Will the units built for HS2 be able to go on to Scotland etc or will changes be necesary can a higher speed Pendolino be built if not the units will not earn their keep.

 

The intention is to build two fleets for HS2. One would be euro-standard trains that can be relatively easily purchased but would be limited to running on HS2 infrastructure. There would also be a fleet of dual-purpose trains that could run not only on HS2 but on the conventional UK 25kV network. Eurostar could do this role with some modifications but by the time of HS1 running would be over 30 years old so not worth converting.

 

On day 1 the euro-trains would work London to Birmingham and the dual-purpose fleet would work to other WCML destinations. On completion of the Manchester and Leeds extensions more euro-trains would come into use and the dual purpose fleet would be re-deployed from London-Manchester to services such as London-Newcastle.

[phil-b259]

.....,as you see I am not totaly against the line but I still think expenditure like this should be scrutinised thoroughly with alternative rail projects considered as well .

 

But alternative rail projects will not solve the problem of WCML capacity, for example electrification of the GWML or MML will not solve the basic problem which is that even the most conservative estimates suggest that by 2025 the demand for train paths (passenger and freight)on the WCML will exceed what the line can provided which will result in all the extra traffic (people and freight) being pushed onto the road network (M1 & M40) which itself cannot cope. Thus extra capacity will be required and after much delibration, research and estimations of the costs of ALL the potental solutions avalable (including further widening, fancy signalling (which includes retro fitting fancy signalling systems to all train cabs, etc) the best value option comes out as building a brand new route. Thus transfering the high speed long distance traffic onto it and freeing up further capacity for freight and stopping passenger services on the WCML itself.

 

The routing and landscaping, etc of the new line is of course one open to queston, indeed it is important to minimise its impact as far as possable, however given the very sensable and logical desire to connect with the GWML and Heathrow in some way a route through the Chilterns cannot be avoided

[Ron Ron Ron]

Will the units built for HS2 be able to go on to Scotland etc or will changes be necesary can a higher speed Pendolino be built if not the units will not earn their keep.

Nothing is set in stone as yet, but there are several options for the trains that will be used on HS2.

The line will be built to similar European gauge as HS1, therefore will be free of the restrictive "narrow body" UK loading gauge. This opens up the scope for HS trains similar to those used on continental HS lines, but obviously they couldn't be used to run onto the classic lines where HS2 runs out.

 

As Edwin has said, one proposal is for 2 fleets. One dedicated to the HS network, possibly Duplex (double deck), and another fleet able to operate both on HS2 and the classic lines, the idea being that the second fleet will operate beyond Birmingham during phase 1 and beyond Manchester and Leeds after the extensions to those cities are complete.

On the other hand, if only one fleet is ordered (to run on both HS2 and the classic lines), many of the advantages of the line being built to the wider loading gauge will be lost.

 

In the initial stages, it's possible that Pendolinos from north of Birmingham may be able to run onto HS2 for the leg from Brum to London, subject to paths being available and in-cab signalling being installed etc. At this stage of HS2, the number of HS paths will be fewer than when the extensions are open, so it may be possible as a short term measure.

In any event, there will still be plenty of work for the Pendolinos to do on the WCML during the latter stages of their working lives. HS2 is not replacing all of the intercity services on that route.

[rob D2]

well I think we would all become NIMBYs when someone wants to put HS2 through your backgarden !

I know if I had an expensive house in the chilterns I would be hoping mad at this, degradation of the scenery and drop of house value.

 

I have not read the whole case for HS2 but brum is really not that far from london, did we not recently upgrade the WCML so people could get there quicker ?

How much time does this shave off ?

[The Stationmaster]

well I think we would all become NIMBYs when someone wants to put HS2 through your backgarden !

I know if I had an expensive house in the chilterns I would be hoping mad at this, degradation of the scenery and drop of house value.

 

I have not read the whole case for HS2 but brum is really not that far from london, did we not recently upgrade the WCML so people could get there quicker ?

How much time does this shave off ?

 

 

The shaving of time is far less important than the creation of extra capacity - that is where the true value of the new line lies as well as opening up some new journey possibilities. And once there is a decision to build a new line it strikes me as logical to build it to full UIC gauge and equally logical to male provision for higher running speeds (although I think what is being talked bout as a 'headline speed' might be too high from an energy consumption viewpoint but the speed of technological change could easily alter that argument.

And apart from the period of construction I'd far sooner have any sort of railway line at the bottom of my garden than even a major road let alone a motorway because road noise is constant and pernicious where as train noise is not constant or, in my experience, as intrusive.

[Allegheny1600]

Posting in here, in relation to 'other' HS2 thread (now locked!).

Good to see that, according to BBC newsite, the new line will be engineered up to 400Kph (250Mph!). This will of necessity be in the country sections as even high power high speed trains can't accelerate to that speed in just a couple of miles or so.

Interesting points are that certain sections in tunnel still require the roads crossing the line to have new bridges. I presume this is because the tunnel/s will be pretty much of 'cut & cover' variety?

Also, on the 'station approach' to Birmingham - this is interesting: "High Speed Viaduct over existing railway viaduct" Potential for some great photographs here?

Looking forward to it all, even better when the new lines come even further north!

John E.

 

PS I'm definately "Pro" so am biased(!) but the only thing that would make me a NIMBY is if they were proposing to demolish my house - with no real compensation and I had spent many years building my perfect model railway in said house!

Also, I seem to recall from my French experiences that simply being near a HSL actually made house prices rise!

Perhaps that illustrates the national differences and 'mindset' between the Brits and the French?

Edited February 19, 2011 by Allegheny1600

[Edwin_m]

A clickable plan has now appeared on the BBC website.