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HS2 under review


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Keith, when the Dreamliner finally enters service (it's very late), it's highly unlikely you'll see it on the Birmingham - Paris route.

Economical cruising altitude varies according to a number of factors, including aircraft type. Believe me, the aircraft that are used on that service (RJ85, ERJ195, DHC8-Q400 plus the occasional A318/319) cruise at economical Flight Levels. wink.gif

 

I don't expect to see a Dreamliner in Birmingham unless they end up on a Transatlantic turn.

The impression that I get, maybe mistaken, that aircraft like the Dreamliner are going to save lots of fuel cruising at Mach 0.85 at 36000 ft or so, for long periods, compared to that used by earlier generations of jets. The longer the journey the more economical it becomes per passenger/km. Less fuel can be saved pro-rata on short journeys where the fuel guzzling climb is a major part of the journey. That is where savings are going to be harder to gain and where it seems the train has the best chance of competing.

 

I can't remember which aircraft I went to Paris on, it might even have been in the late 80's but it did not seem to reach a cruising altitude at all, it seemed to be on a long gradual climb until somewhere over the SE of England and then throttle back and an equally slow decent.

On long haul flights to Asia, Africa and the US, (all from Heathrow admittedly) the climb seemed quicker and to a higher altitude and then cruised for a long period until throttle back for decent. Maybe things have changed significantly in more recent times!

 

Keith

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I can't remember which aircraft I went to Paris on, it might even have been in the late 80's but it did not seem to reach a cruising altitude at all, it seemed to be on a long gradual climb until somewhere over the SE of England and then throttle back and an equally slow decent.

On long haul flights to Asia, Africa and the US, (all from Heathrow admittedly) the climb seemed quicker and to a higher altitude and then cruised for a long period until throttle back for decent. Maybe things have changed significantly in more recent times!

 

Keith

 

I thought all aircraft coming out of LHR have to climb on a noise abatement profile anyway? Looking on the Flight Radar site the rates of climb in relation to distance from take-off seem reasonably similar. there's an A320 out of LHR just past Broxbourne and at 16,000ft while the one that took off behind it was at about the same altitiude south of Haslemere enroute to North Africa.

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HS2 covered at the start of todays ONE show if you want to catch up with it on the Iplayer. It covered the issue largely from the 'anti' perspective, and to be honest, I don't think they did their views any help at all!

 

Larry Lamb (Gavin's dad from Gavin and Stacey) made an interesting point, which is that in France when yuo buy a house you sign away your right to object to a national/strategic interest scheme - which is an interesting perspective, can you see that here?! Does anyone have any experience of this, is it correct? Anyhow, his vehement support for the scheme pretty much finished the debate, this must be done!

 

Regards

 

Richard.

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I saw that part of the programme and the people they interviewed were all NIMBY's The girl tried to put the pro side over but they didn't want to listen. most of the track will be in cuttings and tunnels or sound boards to cut down on the noise...plus it's not going to be as wide as a motorway with a minimum of 8 lanes of road.

 

Personally with the job losses in the RAF later this year and the current Tory government cuts...I said cuts.. I can't see this ever getting started, unless Labour return to 10 downing street! :(

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A Pop TV programme like the One Show can't be taken seriously for the level of debate or balance they usually provide. It's light entertainment trying to be serious in between more trivial items.

There was a much better discussion on the subject on Radio 5 live yesterday.

Whilst I'm broadly in favour of the concept, I'm sceptical about its appropriateness and firmly believe some of the arguments that have been put forward in support are either extremely weak, or just plain and utter rubbish. There were some almost compelling arguments against HS2 in that discussion and not ones involving NIMBY 'ism.

 

Note the timescales have slipped back to those being talked about by the last administration. London - Birmingham by 2026 at the earliest and the extensions to Manchester and Leeds by the mid '30s.

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Larry Lamb (Gavin's dad from Gavin and Stacey) made an interesting point, which is that in France when yuo buy a house you sign away your right to object to a national/strategic interest scheme - which is an interesting perspective, can you see that here?! Does anyone have any experience of this, is it correct? Anyhow, his vehement support for the scheme pretty much finished the debate, this must be done!

 

Regards

 

Richard.

I have heard that this is the case in France. However the compensation is extremely generous and probably cheaper in the long run as there is no need for long and expensive delays and inquiries. The main objections here would come from the lawyers as it would deprive them of a lot of fees.

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Interesting, thanks for the clarification on that PhilJW. I guess it comes down to the differences in outlook and planning system in the UK vs France. Here we have a very consultative approach, even for the newts, whereas in France the impression appears to be that it's in the public interest, or seen to be, so get on with it. Our approach is a democratic one which does take everyones view into account (It does, I've worked in it!), but it does take more time to get projects developed than, say, China.... (Where High Speed Rail lines are developing at a massive rate...).

 

Indeed Ron, it will only be a superficial view in a five minute slot, but as I mentioned, the 'anti' views put forward only really came across as 'nimby', points of view, rather than any structured wider view of the transport needs of the country.

 

Regards

 

Richard,

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It's also easier to operate a compensation scheme like the French do when you have a much lower popluation density. The amount of compulsory purchase and compensation will be far higher on the route of HS2 than it will be on a project like LGV Pays de la Loire.

 

It seems a pity to me that the pro-HS2 lobby is failing to make its voice heard. I suppose the human interest stories of people whose lives will be 'ruined' by high-speed make far jucier copy than talk about how the economies of cities in the Midlands and the north will benefit in the 2030s and beyond. It's down to the politicians to make that sound an exciting prospect - if they believe in it they really need to sell it.

 

And if all else fails, perhaps the alternative would be to let the landed gentry of Bucks keep their lovely gardens and unspoilt views and spend £17 billion on the rail network in Northern England, the southwest and Wales instead?

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Interesting, thanks for the clarification on that PhilJW. I guess it comes down to the differences in outlook and planning system in the UK vs France. Here we have a very consultative approach, even for the newts, whereas in France the impression appears to be that it's in the public interest, or seen to be, so get on with it. Our approach is a democratic one which does take everyones view into account (It does, I've worked in it!), but it does take more time to get projects developed than, say, China.... (Where High Speed Rail lines are developing at a massive rate...).

 

Indeed Ron, it will only be a superficial view in a five minute slot, but as I mentioned, the 'anti' views put forward only really came across as 'nimby', points of view, rather than any structured wider view of the transport needs of the country.

 

Regards

 

Richard,

I've not heard of this 'signing away of rights' when purchasing property in France- certainly, it was never mentioned during our interminable discussions with the notaire when buying our parcel.

The initial honeymoon period with LGVs in France seems to be over; at least when they come up against fairly densely populated areas such as the route towards Nimes, Montpelier and Perpignan from near Avignon, or that from Marseille along the Cote d'Azur. The former currently uses the 'Classic' route, which is blocked by level crossing accidents at seemingly weekly intervals- perhaps coincidentally, the one that causes the most grief is adjacent to the Cave Co-operative at Lunel..

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It's also easier to operate a compensation scheme like the French do when you have a much lower popluation density. The amount of compulsory purchase and compensation will be far higher on the route of HS2 than it will be on a project like LGV Pays de la Loire.

 

It seems a pity to me that the pro-HS2 lobby is failing to make its voice heard. I suppose the human interest stories of people whose lives will be 'ruined' by high-speed make far jucier copy than talk about how the economies of cities in the Midlands and the north will benefit in the 2030s and beyond. It's down to the politicians to make that sound an exciting prospect - if they believe in it they really need to sell it.

 

And if all else fails, perhaps the alternative would be to let the landed gentry of Bucks keep their lovely gardens and unspoilt views and spend £17 billion on the rail network in Northern England, the southwest and Wales instead?

 

 

We are not all landed gentry in Bucks most of us are ordinary folks trying to get by on low incomes ,check your facts before uttering them! By the way we have more than adequate links by rail already.

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We are not all landed gentry in Bucks most of us are ordinary folks trying to get by on low incomes ,check your facts before uttering them! By the way we have more than adequate links by rail already.

 

I didn't actually say everyone in the county was a high earner with a big garden, but I apologise if I gave the impression that was my view (it isn't).

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......make far jucier copy than talk about how the economies of cities in the Midlands and the north will benefit in the 2030s and beyond. It's down to the politicians to make that sound an exciting prospect - if they believe in it they really need to sell it.

 

And if all else fails, perhaps the alternative would be to let the landed gentry of Bucks keep their lovely gardens and unspoilt views and spend £17 billion on the rail network in Northern England, the southwest and Wales instead?

The counter arguments (nothing to do with the NIMBY's or the Chilterns) include the view that rather than bring increased prosperity to the Midlands and North, HS2 will simply feed the economy of London and actually draw away economic activity and investment from the regional economies.

It's very difficult to argue against the fact that economic and financial centres have this gravitational pull.

 

As for the money being spent on the rest of the railway network....

The government are suggesting a 50% cut in spending on rail by the end of this decade. They say it this will be achieved partly by increasing fares and partly by reforming and overhauling the structure and operation of Network Rail.

If I understand it correctly, HS2 is outside of that thinking.

Given that, if HS2 is put back or abandoned, I hardly think the HS2 money will be diverted to supporting the rest of the railway.

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I saw that part of the programme and the people they interviewed were all NIMBY's The girl tried to put the pro side over but they didn't want to listen. most of the track will be in cuttings and tunnels or sound boards to cut down on the noise...plus it's not going to be as wide as a motorway with a minimum of 8 lanes of road.

 

But it is worth pointing out that until the 'NIMBYs' started complaining, the route was at many points much more instrusive, and much less in cuttings and tunnels.

 

I have a high speed line near were I now live in Eastern Belgium, and I do hope that HS2 will be more intensively used than that. Although fun to travel on, that is very much a ghost line, with very few services - just one domestic Begian IC train per hour each way and even less true high speed Thalys - and you cannot believe it is paying back the money invested in it at all.

 

Chris Higgs

 

Who has a house a couple of miles from the line in North Oxfordshire, and who found it difficult to envisage exactly how high a viaduct they were proposing to build until more common sense views prevailed (or perhaps people who represent Buckingham/Oxfordshire constituencies got into power). You got the impression they were just trying to get one up on the likes of Brunel and build just about the most spectacular piece of civil engineering possible.

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Yes, you've said all that before, and you've also had it pointed out to you before that, as HS2 will take most of the express services off the lower end of the WCML, the service capacity, and timings for the local and regional trains in your area will improve as much, if not more than they would if major upgrade work was done on the current line instead. Basically, you will benefit just as much as the people travelling from London to Birmingham.

 

From what I have found out this will not happen if anything we will have less services but doubtless someone will say that it wont happen.

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Christian Wolmar wrote an article that opposes HS2 in the Daily Fail!

 

http://www.dailymail...k-disaster.html

 

I accept that might well be an abridged 'article' but I'm afraid as usual Christian Wolmar does little more than once again impress upon me that which he does not know or understand about railway operation and infrastructure. That doesn't by the way imply that I think a new 'high speed' line from London to Birmingham is a good thing (because I don't think that for one minute) but his reasoning against it seems to be based more on hyperbole than factual comparison or indeed discussion of the need for a new - much faster - core route between London and northern England/Scotland via a carefully considered 'key' list of intermediate cities/'parkway' stations near to key road routes/conurbations (which wouldn't include Birmingham except possibly as a 'branch'). The latter could possibly be said of the present scheme but that is not at all how it is being presented and quite honestly the speeds being talked about are - while no doubt achievable - entering the realms of near fantasy once power consumption is taken into account if SNCF's experience is anything to go by.

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By 2030 (!?!?!?!) it will all be too late and we'll be upsetting others for wanting to improve something else, too little too late I feel.

More concerned over how much money and time will be wasted proving it is right and wrong,Crossrail anyone?

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  • 8 months later...
The Campaign to Protect Rural England said additional tunnelling would be "essential" if HS2 is to be built through the Chilterns and welcomed the possibility of additional funding.

 

A spokesman said: "We are concerned, however, by suggestions that the additional £500 million will come from cutting back on mitigation measures elsewhere on the route. Just because countryside is not nationally designated does not mean it should not be valued and protected.

 

"If the government is looking to generate savings to pay for much needed environmental mitigation, it would be better to cut back on the proposed Birmingham Interchange station.

 

"This would encroach into the Green Belt next to Birmingham Airport and is currently proposed to require major road widening and a huge multi-storey car park."

Edited by Ron Ron Ron
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