Heritage railways may be running out of steam

[Zomboid]

Couple of different threads here now...

Personally I think there's no long term future in just offering a train ride for 50 quid. Families are probably the main target audience, but they need more than that these days. Quite how to go about that is another question. The only one I'm familiar with at the moment is the Epping Ongar Railway, where it seems they have some kind of special event every weekend over the summer, mostly not really related to railways (classic car rallies, visits from people dressed up line kids TV characters, you name it...). They also run a vintage bus service to and from Epping tube station and some other routes, and have big bus related events. No idea how successful they are though, I don't tend to visit on those days.

[adb968008]

On 29/08/2019 at 12:03, Steamport Southport said:

 

I can't really comment on the others but I know a bit about Dinting.

 

It was mainly a falling out with the owner of the land. However it was coming to the end of it's natural life anyway. It suffered the same fate as Steamport Southport and Steamtown Carnforth. The market had changed. Whilst in the 1970s people were quite happy to see a few steam engines and have a short ride of a few hundred yards, by the 1980s they wanted a proper journey and possibly even a meal. None were failures though and two of the societies are still going strong at different sites. Whilst Carnforth is now West Coast Railways.

 

 

 

Jason

In their latter years Dinting, Southport nor Carnforth “sold themselves”, there was little going on, and let themselves slide off the map.

 

Meanwhile East Lancs was grabbing the headlines as a new line and their marketing was in overdrive.

Dinting was a dispute.

 

Wasn’t steamport due to an offer from a Supermarket ?, though a few years earlier it got revenue from 155-153 conversions.

 

I know ELR lobbied hard for Dinting to relocate to Bury.

Edited August 30, 2019 by adb968008

[Mallard60022]

There was something I mostly missed on  R4 yesterday afternoon, when I was resting whilst recovering from a wedding do up in the Lake District, about managing Volunteers. I shall have  shufty at the Radio Times and try to identify what it was; very applicable to what we have been going on about here. Really worth a listen IMO.

 

Edit: 20.30 In Business 'Free - and Easy?' Repeated this Sunday at 21.30.

P

Edited August 30, 2019 by Mallard60022

[jonny777]

22 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Couple of different threads here now...

Personally I think there's no long term future in just offering a train ride for 50 quid. Families are probably the main target audience, but they need more than that these days. 

 

I'm not even sure that is true any longer. 

 

A look at a few heritage lines has convinced me that 30-something parents cannot afford expensive days out with the children, or they are both working. 

 

The disposable income appears to be in the hands of grandparents now, and a majority of them are the ones taking the grandkids on trains. I don't have any magic solution, but targeting granny and grandad and whoever they may bring with them, might be the way to go? 

 

From a personal viewpoint, when with the little terrors, I find a few swings and a slide can be a godsend (not for my use - you understand), and a few benches to sit on (away from the platform but with a view of any trains). 

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by jonny777

[Bucoops]

On 24/08/2019 at 07:18, Bucoops said:

We don't get to many railways, but we usually try and do one per UK holiday. One thing we have noticed is there isn't usually a choice of ticket - it's an all day rover or a per-journey ticket. We prefer the per journey ticket as most of the time the railway we visit is on the way to somewhere else so having to buy an all day rover works out very expensive as we will only do one round trip. Choice would be better so if you only want (or have time for)  return trip that is offered at a lower cost than an all day rover which should be offered at a lower cost than (say) two round trips.

 

We actually managed two last week - Bluebell which I've not been to in years, and IoWSR which I've never been to before. Both only offered rover tickets (which we knew) - Bluebell we only did the one round trip as it was on the way to Portsmouth for the ferry to the IoW, but the IoWSR we also did the Island Line from their link to Ryde Pier and back.

 

We also had time to do two round trips on the IoWSR mostly on the 4 wheelers because you can have bogies anywhere.

 

We really liked both lines - we didn't have much time to do the education bits at the Bluebell but did do everything at Haven Street (question - why is the IoWSR timetable with Haven Street first, it makes us think that was the end of the line but it was much more convenient to park at Wootton?).

 

 

 

It did stand out the average age of the visible staff/volunteers was high. However I've never seen so many platform staff as at the Bluebell.

 

Both railways are a great credit to themselves and the standard of restoration of the coaching stock is first class (pun intended). Riding in a coach estimated to have been built in 1864 was a highlight for me.

[phil-b259]

On 24/08/2019 at 07:18, Bucoops said:

We don't get to many railways, but we usually try and do one per UK holiday. One thing we have noticed is there isn't usually a choice of ticket - it's an all day rover or a per-journey ticket. We prefer the per journey ticket as most of the time the railway we visit is on the way to somewhere else so having to buy an all day rover works out very expensive as we will only do one round trip. Choice would be better so if you only want (or have time for)  return trip that is offered at a lower cost than an all day rover which should be offered at a lower cost than (say) two round trips.

 

As has been noted elsewhere it is pretty much impossible to cover the running costs on fares revenue alone. Heritage Railways do not get any government subsidy and steam locos + vintage stock is expensive to run. A few years ago I was told that a medium sized loco on a medium sized train at the Bluebell got through £2000 of coal a day. Then you have overheads like utilities or paid staff to factor in.

 

Packaging up tickets as ‘all day rovers’ is thus an attempt to try and offer something back to visitors as it is impossible to charge any less - even if the tickets were sold on a ‘one trip’ basis. For example were the Bluebell to offer a ‘one trip only’ option it’s only going to be a quid or so cheaper than the ‘all day rover option’ 

 

The other hope is that by pitching the tickets as an ‘all day rover’ it might prompt people to stay a bit longer. Supermarkets are well versed at appealing to our inner ‘Ive nabbed a bargain’ tendencies with their multi-buy offers (quite a few of which actually result in increased food waste as folk buy more than they can use before it goes bad). If people stay longer at the railway then they are usually going to spend more on catering, and may drop a bit more in various collection boxes etc as they explore the railway in greater detail - all of which helps the finances.

 

Edited August 31, 2019 by phil-b259

[Bucoops]

52 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

As has been noted elsewhere it is pretty much impossible to cover the running costs on fares revenue alone. Heritage Railways do not get any government subsidy and steam locos + vintage stock is expensive to run. A few years ago I was told that a medium sized loco on a medium sized train at the Bluebell got through £2000 of coal a day. Then you have overheads like utilities or paid staff to factor in.

 

Packaging up tickets as ‘all day rovers’ is thus an attempt to try and offer something back to visitors as it is impossible to charge any less - even if the tickets were sold on a ‘one trip’ basis. For example were the Bluebell to offer a ‘one trip only’ option it’s only going to be a quid or so cheaper than the ‘all day rover option’ 

 

The other hope is that by pitching the tickets as an ‘all day rover’ it might prompt people to stay a bit longer. Supermarkets are well versed at appealing to our inner ‘Ive nabbed a bargain’ tendencies with their multi-buy offers (quite a few of which actually result in increased food waste as folk buy more than they can use before it goes bad). If people stay longer at the railway then they are usually going to spend more on catering, and may drop a bit more in various collection boxes etc as they explore the railway in greater detail - all of which helps the finances.

 

 

I have no doubt you are correct - there's just that feeling that when you are paying for all day travel knowing you will only use it once.

 

Incidentally we did use the catering facilities at the IoWSR (very good they are too!) and purchased several souvenirs from both railways as well as depositing some loose change in various collection boxes. Plus of course the additional cost of first class tickets. Hopefully we have helped both lines a little bit

[caradoc]

On 29/08/2019 at 11:03, Steamport Southport said:

 

I can't really comment on the others but I know a bit about Dinting.

 

It was mainly a falling out with the owner of the land. However it was coming to the end of it's natural life anyway. It suffered the same fate as Steamport Southport and Steamtown Carnforth. The market had changed. Whilst in the 1970s people were quite happy to see a few steam engines and have a short ride of a few hundred yards, by the 1980s they wanted a proper journey and possibly even a meal. None were failures though and two of the societies are still going strong at different sites. Whilst Carnforth is now West Coast Railways.

 

 

 

Jason

 

I only visited Carnforth once, in1993 with my then-small daughter who was keen to ride on steam train. While waiting it was announced that there would be no train rides as 'we are shunting the yard'. We never went back, and I was not surprised when the place closed to visitors. Fair enough, they had other things on the go than catering for visitors, but in that case don't advertise something and then not provide it. 

 

[caradoc]

On 29/08/2019 at 11:03, Steamport Southport said:

 

I can't really comment on the others but I know a bit about Dinting.

 

It was mainly a falling out with the owner of the land. However it was coming to the end of it's natural life anyway. It suffered the same fate as Steamport Southport and Steamtown Carnforth. The market had changed. Whilst in the 1970s people were quite happy to see a few steam engines and have a short ride of a few hundred yards, by the 1980s they wanted a proper journey and possibly even a meal. None were failures though and two of the societies are still going strong at different sites. Whilst Carnforth is now West Coast Railways.

 

 

 

Jason

 

I only visited Carnforth once, in1993 with my then-small daughter who was keen to ride on steam train. While waiting it was announced that there would be no train rides as 'we are shunting the yard'. We never went back, and I was not surprised when the place closed to visitors. Fair enough, they had other things on the go than catering for visitors, but in that case don't advertise something and then not provide it. 

 

[brianusa]

It is all too easy to fall into the fun part of railways by adding mini fair grounds on the premise that they will generate more revenue.  While this may indeed add a few pennies to the kitty, the main emphasis should remain with the trains as they are the premier reason for the visit.  The fun things are for kids mainly to keep them occupied as barring exceptions, only a few have the total concept of a preserved railway.  They have no idea of what was once on our railways and cannot make the connection with what is running today.  In other words they are taken to the railway perhaps because of Thomas and his friends or because the kid down the street thought it was cool!  There is not the built in memories of adult train enthusiasts that draw them to the railway nor have they been engulfed by smoke or got a smut in their eye when they stick their head out the window.  So it is likely that dire warnings will come to nowt but it is apparent that railways will have to revise their procedures to ensure their continuing operation.

    Brian.

    

[deltic17]

I think one important thing for preserved railways is to provide excellent food / drink as we all know that generally makes good money. A top notch café/bar/restaurant run well should provide a steady stream of profits and the better the food the more people will return and word will get around and it will even get custom from non railway visitors over time if the product is spot on. This obviously also applies to on board offerings/Pullman style meals/dining trains.

[phil-b259]

On 01/09/2019 at 21:14, deltic17 said:

I think one important thing for preserved railways is to provide excellent food / drink as we all know that generally makes good money. A top notch café/bar/restaurant run well should provide a steady stream of profits and the better the food the more people will return and word will get around and it will even get custom from non railway visitors over time if the product is spot on. This obviously also applies to on board offerings/Pullman style meals/dining trains.

 

Even that can be tricky - as quite a few people will compare what the railway offers in price / selection terms with what can be had at large chain eating establishments - who generally have an easier time thanks to economies of scale and the ability to strike better deals with wholesalers.

 

As with everything else, visitor expectations have increased - folk asking for a ‘cup of coffee’ these days expect more than a spoonful of Nescafé from a jar....

[Zomboid]

I wonder when we'll see something like a branch of Starbucks in a heritage railway station. Some of them might actually be reasonably located to have a franchise like that...

[TravisM]

I’ve only just found this thread and after reading through, I have sympathies with some heritage railways and zero for others, especially those that just run a couple of hundred yards and look more like a scrap merchants than a railway.

 

I had the misfortune of going to the Buckinghamshire Railway Centre a few years back and staggered at the condition of the exhibits.  Apart from a few under cover, most looking neglected though Quainton Road station looked well kept.  I was also browsing in the bookshop and overheard several of the senior managers talking and they said that visitors were down, as were volunteers and if things don’t improve drastically soon, it would probably have to close.

 

I’m pretty sure the BRC is not the only heritage railway facing this, maybe close the running line and concentrate on the station and fewer, more manageable exhibits.

[Nearholmer]

BRC is a very mixed bag, even now, but has managed to pull itself out of the dark place that is was in c10 years ago, when it used to almost make me weep.

 

On the subject of food, it has a really good premises for its cafe, but the food is stuck in the 1970s, so it is underselling itself in that respect.

 

Good bits: everything in and about the old Oxford Station; the display of goods wagons and loads in the big shed; the secondhand book shop (recent brand new building, fantastic stock, pocket money prices); the wonderful four and six-wheeled coaches; some nice quirky locos that wouldn’t get to run on a longer railway; the willingness of some volunteers to properly explain and interpret things for children and non-gricers.

 

The less good bits: still too much scrap iron that probably has zero chance of restoration. Why they keep a gigantic, truly scruffy and presumably never-to-run-again SA loco as gate guardian really baffles me. It’s like leaving a huge pile unwashed underwear on your doorstep: unlikely to create a favourable impression among visitors.

[Oldddudders]

On 31/08/2019 at 21:46, brianusa said:

It is all too easy to fall into the fun part of railways by adding mini fair grounds on the premise that they will generate more revenue.  While this may indeed add a few pennies to the kitty, the main emphasis should remain with the trains as they are the premier reason for the visit.  The fun things are for kids mainly to keep them occupied as barring exceptions, only a few have the total concept of a preserved railway. 

    

Sadly true across all sorts of 'activities' these days, Brian. Go to a 24-hour sportscar race, even here at le Mans, and you find there is a concert at 2100 on the Saturday, with some famous (probably a bit passé) act bringing in hordes of youngsters who care relatively little for the racing. OTOH, the fairground, long a staple of entertainment at this track, has lost some of its seediness, and the strippers no longer demonstrate their wares. Progress of a sort, perhaps. 

[Killybegs]

I must have missed the strippers when I went to the race in 1994!

[caradoc]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

BRC is a very mixed bag, even now, but has managed to pull itself out of the dark place that is was in c10 years ago, when it used to almost make me weep.

 

On the subject of food, it has a really good premises for its cafe, but the food is stuck in the 1970s, so it is underselling itself in that respect.

 

Good bits: everything in and about the old Oxford Station; the display of goods wagons and loads in the big shed; the secondhand book shop (recent brand new building, fantastic stock, pocket money prices); the wonderful four and six-wheeled coaches; some nice quirky locos that wouldn’t get to run on a longer railway; the willingness of some volunteers to properly explain and interpret things for children and non-gricers.

 

The less good bits: still too much scrap iron that probably has zero chance of restoration. Why they keep a gigantic, truly scruffy and presumably never-to-run-again SA loco as gate guardian really baffles me. It’s like leaving a huge pile unwashed underwear on your doorstep: unlikely to create a favourable impression among visitors.

 

I visited Quainton Road in August for their 50th Anniversary Gala and would agree with all you say. The Gala was certainly very well attended, with many families and children. Rewley Road station, and the new secondand bookshop, are indeed excellent, and would grace any heritage railway site.

 

[Northmoor]

On 05/10/2019 at 08:36, Nearholmer said:

BRC is a very mixed bag, even now, but has managed to pull itself out of the dark place that is was in c10 years ago, when it used to almost make me weep.

 

On the subject of food, it has a really good premises for its cafe, but the food is stuck in the 1970s, so it is underselling itself in that respect.

 

Good bits: everything in and about the old Oxford Station; the display of goods wagons and loads in the big shed; the secondhand book shop (recent brand new building, fantastic stock, pocket money prices); the wonderful four and six-wheeled coaches; some nice quirky locos that wouldn’t get to run on a longer railway; the willingness of some volunteers to properly explain and interpret things for children and non-gricers.

 

The less good bits: still too much scrap iron that probably has zero chance of restoration. Why they keep a gigantic, truly scruffy and presumably never-to-run-again SA loco as gate guardian really baffles me. It’s like leaving a huge pile unwashed underwear on your doorstep: unlikely to create a favourable impression among visitors.

I will give 100% endorsement of your assessment.  The BRC has obviously made real efforts to get exhibits undercover and is excellent for interpreting the exhibits.  I think my father may have found his idea of heaven in the secondhand bookshop. 

For those items still out in the weather, they really do need volunteers with a paintbrush and they are far from alone in this.  Last year I spent a good day at the Embsay Steam Railway which seems to have terrible problems with flaking paint on some buildings and rolling stock.  The way this had deteriorated indicated not so much that no-one cared for the items but that there had been recurring mistakes (no blame needed) with preparation or matching undercoats and top coats.  It must be very frustrating to see your good work undone in just a few years.

[edward66]

Just read through the 4 pages of this topic, found it very interesting. There are some railways that try very hard to make things interesting for volunteers and have well structured introductions and education in the topics that they will come across. One danger is the "fun" factor. Volunteers are just that and they do want to enjoy their volunteering or they will soon quit. Nowadays we have a very much safety oriented society so there is much more beurocracy to deal with which doesn't have much of a fun factor but it is very necessary. When I was a volunteer back in the 80s it was a great deal of fun and not too much worry with rules, everybody was assumed to have basic common sense, [now it is apparently a rare commodity] nobody got hurt and things got done. Now we have a new rule that forbids people to work on a railway until they are 16 but again some more enlightened railways have special courses for the 14-16 age group which seem to be successful. Obviously in the H&S climate of today volunteering can still have some of the fun factor but with an underlining of seriousness.

 Young people are the future for the heritage industry. I do feel that as yet the numbers of them actively involved is probably insufficient for all the heritage lines and some may very well fall by the wayside. Only old codgers like me can remember the days when steam engines were part of our daily experience and as we fall by the wayside today's youngsters will have to create their own railway heritage to ensure at least some of it will continue.

[sem34090]

Another agreement with the assessments of the BRC - I've visited many times over the years, and it's definitely getting better. That CO/CP set makes me weep though. Perhaps they ought to communicate with the LTM's Q Stock group if they haven't already as that stock deserves better than to rot. The Egyptian Railcar deserves some love too.

 

So, to address another common theme in this thread, it would seem - Young volunteers. First off, I am one and have been for a little over 14 months now, and by my reckoning (assuming I haven't missed or added any by mistake) will have completed my 50th platform turn by close of play on Saturday, 55th by the following Saturday. Taking into account closed periods (roughly 2.5 months) I'd make that to be just over equivalent to one turn each week. In that time my role has changed in virtually no way whatsoever (My age will play against me here for a few more months yet), and I know that it will take time to progress when I am able to. Besides my platform work, I am engaged in a project to introduce a new educational exhibit at Medstead & Four Marks Station (Which I'm hoping will take off from the middle of next month, all being well). This exhibit is also bringing benefits for me, educationally. I have enjoyed my time volunteering on the MHR so far, and see no reason for that to change any time soon (though I may need to scale back slightly on the number of turns). Those who I know have generally commented that during the time I have worked there I have changed in several positive ways, and for my own part I think that it has certainly given me a confidence (occasionally even self-pride) that was at times non-existent before. It has also improved my ability to deal with other people (not that this was ridiculously awful before!), given me a fair variety of transferable skills and just generally improved my existence! I know I will have to be patient whilst waiting to progress - I knew I wasn't going to be a bobby overnight! Perhaps there needs to be something for those who want to try out more, sooner. I have heard a suggestion about this too, but don't know what came of it. All the same, I would recommend volunteering on a heritage railway to anyone (I've suggested it to a non-enthusiast peer who's looking for somewhere to volunteer for an award, and he seems like he might even try it so it'd be interesting to see how that works out)

 

However, one of my fellow younger volunteers (older than I) has been working there for longer than many older platform staff, and yet has only just begun to be able to really progress. I cannot and will not make any comments as to the nature of this, but suffice to say I and several others felt that perhaps this progression is somewhat overdue and it would have been fairer to allow someone who had given such consistent and enthusiastic service to progress sooner. I can see how this might have had potential to put him off continuing at the railway, though it didn't. I must also stress that every situation is different and ultimately it is up to the railway's management to decide what is best - this is not really a criticism. At any rate he is now progressing.

 

Now, Nostalgia. I guess I'm a bit of a strange case (and anyone who knows me will confirm that I am definitely one of those! ) but my earliest railway memories are not from the main line, generally, but from the MHR and other heritage railways. I don't think my interest in the Southern would exist otherwise, for sure. My interest in railways developed from those visits, I think, with a few other influences and that has subsequently led to my wider interest in 'history' which has in many ways shaped me. So I'm nostalgic about heritage railways and a lost past that I never got to experience. I know others like me, but in truth the vast majority are not. As has been, in my opinion rightly, observed here the majority of the visitor demographic is not formed by people like me, but by people with limited interest in the subject matter and increasingly limited or non-existent memories of steam in regular operation, as highlighted by several very good posts up there somewhere. And I think with the rate that fares are having to increase (There is little difference between our return fares and our rover fares) heritage lines are finally realising that they need to improve the educational offering and the all-round experience - As so many have said "A train ride alone is not enough anymore". There needs to be activities and other means of engagement, but if the railway is short enough (I think 10-12 miles is perhaps the optimum in terms of decent journey vs short enough for small children) then these can generally be provided at stations. Events also help, and those which can appeal to the broadest possible mass seem to (naturally) do better - Our Summer wartime event is generally our most popular (I think so, anyway - It was last time I was told!), and I think this is because it is able to appeal to families, the young, the old, the enthusiastic and the non-enthusiastic. The event does not specifically target enthusiasts, but doesn't do much to discourage them - It can appeal to families because there is a lot going on, and there are interactive activities, but can appeal to older people through nostalgia, and it can appeal to those who are in neither of those categories and just fancy an interesting day out, perhaps with some dressing up involved.

 

Education next (I'm really going for the full spiel here!) I know that we recently upgraded the education room at Ropley (which was, I dare say, already better than the offering at some lines) with new interactive exhibits, and have even had one such installed at Medstead which seems to be popular. We don't have a museum showing the railway's history at Ropley, as such, but an educational offering that seems to be more geared towards the S.T.E.M. elements of railways (S.T.E.M., for those who don't know modern educational gimmicky acronyms, refers to 'Science Technology Engineering and Maths') and is open to all visitors, not just to school parties. This seems to fit well with the location of the education room, with large windows overlooking the main erecting shop thus giving visitors a good view of the work going on in there. Speaking of the latter, I gather that during term time we have a school party on most days during the summer term. The goods shed museum at Medstead seems to fulfil the historical side of things, with videos on the railway's history as well as displays on the history of goods traffic by rail, almost unrecognisable today. Having this kind of display at Medstead is. perhaps, appropriate as when the whole line is open the station is very quiet and perhaps best reflects the nature of a country station in the mid-20th century. I think the education offering is pretty strong, though perhaps some visitors might offer a better view of this.

 

As for rusting stock? The MHR has some. I can't think of any line which hasn't got some somewhere, but I think they keep the bulk of it out of the way. Yes, a lot of it is in sidings beside the line but that is better than in station areas where people can see it as soon as they arrive (though some service coaches might give that impression - work is in hand to sort this, I gather). There are wagons at Alton station, but several of those are clearly being restored, not just left to rot, and have new coats of paint. The same goes for Medstead. There are some stored locos at Ropley, but they're not in completely terrible condition. 80150 is visible from the platforms at Alresford, but this is also clearly being worked on. The worst of the stock is well away from the station down in the yard at Alresford, to which the public have no access (I notice a few bits have moved up to Ropley of late, but I don't know why and they may not be there now).

 

As for large numbers of heritage lines? Perhaps there is something in that. But certainly in the South East none of them seem to detract from one another.

 

Apologies for the HUGE post, but I hope at least some of that made sense.

Edited October 24, 2019 by sem34090

[Steamport Southport]

I reckon the main problem is that most youngsters don't want to get their hands dirty anymore. They all want to be guards, station staff, signalmen, buffet car attendants, etc. It's the same in the "real world" as well, nobody wants to be a plumber or a builder, everyone wants to work in retail, admin or hospitality. TBH I don't really blame them. By young people I don't just mean teenagers, I also include people now in their 40s who haven't grown up in an industrialised society.

 

 

Is it any wonder there is neglected stock everywhere when you haven't got the people who want to wield a wire brush and a tin of red lead? Or hit things with a big hammer.

 

 

 

Jason

[Northmoor]

24 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

I reckon the main problem is that most youngsters don't want to get their hands dirty anymore. They all want to be guards, station staff, signalmen, buffet car attendants, etc. It's the same in the "real world" as well, nobody wants to be a plumber or a builder, everyone wants to work in retail, admin or hospitality. TBH I don't really blame them. By young people I don't just mean teenagers, I also include people now in their 40s who haven't grown up in an industrialised society.

 

Is it any wonder there is neglected stock everywhere when you haven't got the people who want to wield a wire brush and a tin of red lead? Or hit things with a big hammer.

 

I agree about your first paragraph; there was an excellent piece in the SVR magazine a few years ago about recruiting apprentices for the loco works/boiler shop.  A 16y.o could go and work in a nice air-conditioned office, make the tea, photocopy and learn about "business".  They could probably play on the internet at lunchtime.  Alternatively, they could get inside a loco firebox, drill, ream out, make and fit four firebox stays a day, getting filthy every single day for three months.  The railway were delighted with the youngsters they did recruit, but could see why plenty of people could see it wasn't for them.

 

As for your second paragraph, you could look at this two ways.  Either the railway that finds itself in that situation can't recruit enough suitable volunteers, or they have acquired more stock that they knowingly lack the resources to restore and maintain.  I think in most cases, preserved railways suffer from the latter.  It is all too easy to be halfway through one restoration before being distracted by the next item that comes available for sale, which then gets a week's worth of enthusiastic attention before joining the "awaiting restoration" queue.

[sem34090]

7 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

I reckon the main problem is that most youngsters don't want to get their hands dirty anymore.

I think there is certainly an element of truth in that.

7 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

They all want to be guards, station staff, signalmen, buffet car attendants, etc.

But are those roles not also necessary too? Okay so one might be able to dispense with station staff and buffet attendants if the situation got really desperate, but heritage railways will almost certainly always require guards and signalmen. I did a stint in Ropley yard as a 'ranger' when I was 14, but the practice was banned shortly after so whilst I had been enthusiastically cleaning locos, including internally and underneath, that enthusiasm was tempered somewhat when it was realised that the operation was not being carried out in accordance with how it should have been. A few years later, I rejoined with the ambition of eventually training as a signalman. Is that because it's a 'cleaner' role? I don't think so, in my personal case - It's more a case that I find more interest in that side of operations. Indeed, I don't have much interest in the engineering aspects (and if I'd want to drive anything regularly it'd be an SR EMU, and that's a bit difficult on most lines!!! I suppose we have the 2H...) of railway operations whereas I do have a lot of interest in the historical side (almost re-enactment side) and have long gained pleasure and interest when operating a signal box under supervision.

7 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

It's the same in the "real world" as well, nobody wants to be a plumber or a builder, everyone wants to work in retail, admin or hospitality.

There is a lot of that about, and I suspect I will be guilty of it too as and when the time comes.

7 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

TBH I don't really blame them. By young people I don't just mean teenagers, I also include people now in their 40s who haven't grown up in an industrialised society.

We have increasingly become a nation of service industries, and I think that's reflected in the way modern education works (or doesn't, as the case might be argued) - Pretty well everyone is subject to a fully academic education up to the age of 16, and many feel pressured to continue that to 18 ('B-Tech's are all well and good, but there's no escaping the fact that there's a certain amount of undeserved snobbery against them, particularly from parents) and then on to university to, sometimes, do courses which serve no useful function (Again, I am probably a hypocrite-in-the-making here given I wish to study History at degree level) because of a not-dissimilar snobbery against apprenticeships, though this seems to be reducing as parents, schools, colleges and teenagers themselves are realising that in lots of cases a vocational apprenticeship offers better prospects than an academic qualification (I'm not looking at doing an apprenticeship simply because my interests and passions don't really translate into one, and I will admit there has been a certain amount of pressure on me to not consider one).

7 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Is it any wonder there is neglected stock everywhere when you haven't got the people who want to wield a wire brush and a tin of red lead? Or hit things with a big hammer.

I must admit that does sound appealing... Perhaps I ought to have a chat with the wagon group!

7 hours ago, Northmoor said:

I agree about your first paragraph; there was an excellent piece in the SVR magazine a few years ago about recruiting apprentices for the loco works/boiler shop.  A 16y.o could go and work in a nice air-conditioned office, make the tea, photocopy and learn about "business".  They could probably play on the internet at lunchtime.  Alternatively, they could get inside a loco firebox, drill, ream out, make and fit four firebox stays a day, getting filthy every single day for three months.  The railway were delighted with the youngsters they did recruit, but could see why plenty of people could see it wasn't for them.

I think apprenticeship schemes at heritage railways are fantastic, and as the stigma against apprenticeships seems to be gradually dropping hopefully these schemes will only develop and grow.

7 hours ago, Northmoor said:

As for your second paragraph, you could look at this two ways.  Either the railway that finds itself in that situation can't recruit enough suitable volunteers, or they have acquired more stock that they knowingly lack the resources to restore and maintain.  I think in most cases, preserved railways suffer from the latter.  It is all too easy to be halfway through one restoration before being distracted by the next item that comes available for sale, which then gets a week's worth of enthusiastic attention before joining the "awaiting restoration" queue.

Definitely.

[Nearholmer]

"I reckon the main problem is that most youngsters don't want to get their hands dirty anymore."

 

I reckon that most people young, old, or in the middle, never really wanted to do physically hard, dirty jobs, ever; given the chance they would take lighter work, in the warm and dry.

 

I also reckon that in the old days most of them had no choice, and that a few found they quite liked the hard and dirty work they were doing, and carried it on as a hobby, but most didn't, because they were glad to be out of it as soon as they could (which in most cases wasn't long before they pegged-out). 

 

But, who cares what I reckon?