Heritage railways may be running out of steam

[Boris]

I disagree with the comments about young people, working inside the heritage sector I find that the majority of people under 30 want to work with locomotives in one form or another.  On the Operating side the younger people generally want to do something light and fun for a day out once a month - ticket examiners or non-despatch station staff, interestingly we also find that with trainee guards under the age of 25 candidates are often lacking in basic people skills or the ability to think independantly, something we have had to adjust our training to rectify.  Rarely we get a trainee signalman under the age of 25, but to be fair young people do find it hard to commit to roles that require a lot of training because of the pressures that occur about that age - housing, college, exams, starting careers etc.

 

What we do get on the operating side are a good number of older people who want the maximum responsibility for the minimum amount of training, these are the ones that gravitate towards station foremen or ticket examiners, the ones who like smart uniforms with a certain element of "look at me" thrown in.  Oddly enough, these are also the ones who are often involved in stupid incidents where procedures haven't been followed or complaints regarding rudeness.  The people in this category who think being a guard is the role for them often get a nasty shock when they are shown a buckeye for the first time or realise that yes, you really do have to get under that coach to check the buckeyes properly, then they go on to be ticket examiners.

 

Preserved railway recruitment is an abolute nightmare, so many people think they will walk in the door and be driving trains within 6 months or running a signalbox inside 2 weeks one of the first things you have to do is to burst their bubble (gently) and make sure they understand the amount of training they require and the commitment level it will take.  The NYMR has an excellent junior volunteers program which it has now run for around 10 years and has produced drivers, guards, signalmen and loco fitters.  However the problem with setting such a scheme up is finding people to run it, it is a huge time commitment for a volunteer to give to coordinate everything, even with assistance, so you're back to the people problem again.

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

I disagree with the comments about young people, working inside the heritage sector I find that the majority of people under 30 want to work with locomotives in one form or another.  On the Operating side the younger people generally want to do something light and fun for a day out once a month - ticket examiners or non-despatch station staff, interestingly we also find that with trainee guards under the age of 25 candidates are often lacking in basic people skills or the ability to think independantly, something we have had to adjust our training to rectify.  Rarely we get a trainee signalman under the age of 25, but to be fair young people do find it hard to commit to roles that require a lot of training because of the pressures that occur about that age - housing, college, exams, starting careers etc.

 

What we do get on the operating side are a good number of older people who want the maximum responsibility for the minimum amount of training, these are the ones that gravitate towards station foremen or ticket examiners, the ones who like smart uniforms with a certain element of "look at me" thrown in.  Oddly enough, these are also the ones who are often involved in stupid incidents where procedures haven't been followed or complaints regarding rudeness.  The people in this category who think being a guard is the role for them often get a nasty shock when they are shown a buckeye for the first time or realise that yes, you really do have to get under that coach to check the buckeyes properly, then they go on to be ticket examiners.

 

Preserved railway recruitment is an abolute nightmare, so many people think they will walk in the door and be driving trains within 6 months or running a signalbox inside 2 weeks one of the first things you have to do is to burst their bubble (gently) and make sure they understand the amount of training they require and the commitment level it will take.  The NYMR has an excellent junior volunteers program which it has now run for around 10 years and has produced drivers, guards, signalmen and loco fitters.  However the problem with setting such a scheme up is finding people to run it, it is a huge time commitment for a volunteer to give to coordinate everything, even with assistance, so you're back to the people problem again.

Therein lies another problem.  You articulate well those who want and expect immediate responsibility in volunteer roles; also the difficulty managing volunteer recruitment.  I think this comes back to the roots of railway preservation, a mindset where everything is done by volunteers, most rolling stock is purchased at scrap value (or free in the case of wagons) then sits around for years because there are no resources, financial or manpower, to restore them, and everything is scrounged. 

 

Doing recruitment properly needs to be done by someone with the right skills - which you are going to have to pay for - rather than because someone is available.  Too many railways think small and say they can't afford it; the larger, more successful ones have got themselves into a virtuous circle whereby they can pay for the skills they cannot recruit through volunteers, which means they can complete more projects, offering an improved day out to customers, which generates more customers who are prepared to spend more, which means being able to pay skilled people, etc etc.  The alternative is a vicious cycle where little is completed, it is believed, because they haven't worked how to do it cheaply enough.

 

[Boris]

7 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Therein lies another problem.  You articulate well those who want and expect immediate responsibility in volunteer roles; also the difficulty managing volunteer recruitment.  I think this comes back to the roots of railway preservation, a mindset where everything is done by volunteers, most rolling stock is purchased at scrap value (or free in the case of wagons) then sits around for years because there are no resources, financial or manpower, to restore them, and everything is scrounged. 

 

Doing recruitment properly needs to be done by someone with the right skills - which you are going to have to pay for - rather than because someone is available.  Too many railways think small and say they can't afford it; the larger, more successful ones have got themselves into a virtuous circle whereby they can pay for the skills they cannot recruit through volunteers, which means they can complete more projects, offering an improved day out to customers, which generates more customers who are prepared to spend more, which means being able to pay skilled people, etc etc.  The alternative is a vicious cycle where little is completed, it is believed, because they haven't worked how to do it cheaply enough.

 

Targeted recruitment is quite difficult as the skills people in operating roles possess are largely finished on the real railway, we can recruit a lot of ex or current Network signallers but too many of them are used to having problems solved for them, or completely different modes of working.  Training them still takes much less time than starting them off the streets though.  Interestingly only 30% of new volunteers stay on a preserved railway more than 2 years, and don't get me started on drop out rates for safety critical roles.

[russ p]

A lot of preserved railways leave railwaymen cold these days 

Throughout the 90s and early 2000s I was a driver and head of the diesel group on a local railway 

About seven years ago I'd been there with a loco on a diesel gala then a week or so later they rang me and said would I help them out and resign all my paperwork and do a turn for them.

Unfortunately I was doing something that day so couldn't help but said I was  happy to resign as a driver if it would help them out 

When I went to sort this out they wanted me to do front end turns before being allowed to do secondman turns...... 

They got told to poke it up their ar$e my job is a driver and I would help but I'm not doing lesser turns, after all doing five miles at 25mph isn't  exactly very exciting  compared to doing 100mph with a deltic on the east coast 

I know this may sound like a prima Donna  but its what  I do for a living.  Ironically it was me that brought DMUs to the line and trained most diesel drivers there.

I can't stand the place now with its little hitler management,  I won't even go when locos from work go for galas

[Northmoor]

35 minutes ago, Boris said:

Targeted recruitment is quite difficult as the skills people in operating roles possess are largely finished on the real railway, we can recruit a lot of ex or current Network signallers but too many of them are used to having problems solved for them, or completely different modes of working.  Training them still takes much less time than starting them off the streets though.  Interestingly only 30% of new volunteers stay on a preserved railway more than 2 years, and don't get me started on drop out rates for safety critical roles.

Excellent points, Boris; that 30% statistic should worry any preserved railway so affected.  I've not been an active volunteer for quite a few years now - time will come when family pressures are not so demanding - but every railway I know well has certain characters who could be partly responsible for that drop-out rate.  We all know the type who knows everything, won't be questioned and keeps information to themselves so no-one else can gain any position of influence and potentially take over their empire.  They are often very unwelcoming of anyone who isn't as knowledgable as them and when the newcomer doesn't stick around, dismisses them as "lacking commitment" or something similar.  Even though the scenario has been repeated hundreds of times over the years, it never occurs to them that perhaps the problem lies with themselves and not others.  The newbies just decided that since they were volunteering as a hobby, it was supposed to be enjoyable.

I did meet one of these characters at a heritage site where I volunteered on quite a few occasions; eventually "Mr Know-all" caused a significant accident which while no-one was injured, caused some expensive unplanned repairs and a visit from the RAIB.  He was seen on site very rarely after that and the place was happier for it.

[Nearholmer]

None of this, except perhaps the potential to cause nasty accidents, is unique to preserved railways: anything that involves volunteers involves people, and some people have a built-in capacity to act in ways that is almost guaranteed to annoy nearly everyone else, especially in an environment where there is little or no sanction for unhelpful, or downright bad, behaviour.

 

The same people usually manage to control their worst excesses when in paying work, because they know deep-down that if they don't they could be out of a job.

 

Do counter-productive volunteers ever "get the sack"? Difficult, I should imagine!

[sem34090]

It is very hard to sack volunteers simply because they are just that and are not paid employees, I should think.

[Dava]

It's getting harder and more competitive for preserved railways. Customer expectations, costs and regulations are rising. The funding which has been available from EU & HLF is disappearing.The workforce is getting older. Can they attract new volunteers?

 

Successful,well-run lines with a strong offer & community base will do well. Others are struggling. Are there too many for all to survive?

 

Dava

[Pandora]

As a career railwayman, I am aware that  that a incident when volunteering on a preserved railway , could directly affect my work on my full time job work on the railway ( my Eu licence)

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by Pandora

[Nearholmer]

“Are there too many for all to survive?”

 

Yes.

[sem34090]

Quite, though I don't think that size will necessarily be the deciding factor in survival. I can see lines like the IoWSR (Small but with a very good offering) managing to last every bit as long as some of the larger lines. Slightly tatty MK1s with little else aren't going to bring in passengers or volunteers for much longer I shouldn't think (and I'm afraid I can think of two lines which fall into exactly that category). Not only does the education and entertainment offering need to be stepped up in many cases, but the quality of the train ride itself. It appears that the MHR has now got a plan in place for overhauling its coach fleet, but this has yet to bear fruit. I'm sorry to report that some of our MK1s are looking very tatty currently.

[Boris]

11 hours ago, russ p said:

A lot of preserved railways leave railwaymen cold these days 

Throughout the 90s and early 2000s I was a driver and head of the diesel group on a local railway 

About seven years ago I'd been there with a loco on a diesel gala then a week or so later they rang me and said would I help them out and resign all my paperwork and do a turn for them.

Unfortunately I was doing something that day so couldn't help but said I was  happy to resign as a driver if it would help them out 

When I went to sort this out they wanted me to do front end turns before being allowed to do secondman turns...... 

They got told to poke it up their ar$e my job is a driver and I would help but I'm not doing lesser turns, after all doing five miles at 25mph isn't  exactly very exciting  compared to doing 100mph with a deltic on the east coast 

I know this may sound like a prima Donna  but its what  I do for a living.  Ironically it was me that brought DMUs to the line and trained most diesel drivers there.

I can't stand the place now with its little hitler management,  I won't even go when locos from work go for galas

Too right Russ - definitely the wrong approach, if they were that desperate they would have arranged something better than that for you!

9 hours ago, sem34090 said:

It is very hard to sack volunteers simply because they are just that and are not paid employees, I should think.

Having been involved in a few of these things, yes, you can sack volunteers, or tell them that their services are no longer required.  However in my experience that option tends to be for gross misconduct, such as having sticky fingers or such things, or some things that come up in a background check that are undesirable.  Safety critical incidents are handled slighly differently depending on severity and previous record, often if people are deemed unsafe they are offered an alternative non-safety critical role, although to be honest take-up is quite low probably due to the embarassment factor.

7 hours ago, Pandora said:

As a career railwayman, I am aware that  that a incident when volunteering on a preserved railway , could directly affect my work on my full time job work on the railway ( my Eu licence)

 

Absolutely, ROGs regulations mean the preserved railway has a legal obligation to inform any mainline company of an incident, and not just the mainline, they would also have to inform any other preserved railway you are involved in.

 

 

I agree entirely that the most dangerous people on heritage railways are the ones who claim to know everything, or the ones who won't come to out of season training becuase they don't believe they need it because they already know it all.  Like you say, these are the ones who are often involved in the incidents, the solution the NYMR came up with was mandatory training every 2 years for  guards and every 12 months for footplate staff.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Boris
Sausages

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

the solution the NYMR came up with was mandatory training every 2 years for  guards and every 12 months for footplate staff.

Having been a visitor to the NYMR since 1987 and regularly for most of the last 15 seasons I have noticed a subtle shift in the style. On my early visits it was still very much a preservation volunteer hobby feel but lately has seemed to be a more professional tourist orientated business, especially with the Whitby through service. I see this as having been a logical progression as this is where income comes from rather than selling old mags from a leaking van in a bay platform. Evolution is essential for survival in any enterprise.

 

High profile incidents such as those at theme parks in recent years damage the image and are bad for the bottom line. The state of WCRC in 2015/6 put the whole Heritage Railway sector under the microscope.

[russ p]

Things have gone full circle these days with the likes of west coast employing some of the know alls from preserved railways,  don't get me wrong there are some very good blokes on west coast  but when I see preserved railway prima Donna's  strutting about I don't give them the time of day.

One who was working as a guard managed to block three trains in in Norwich sidings then went for his breakfast! 

Its stuff like this that wind the TOCs up and they become less tolerant of charters,  no railwayman I know would have done this.

The individual involved started bleating to me about how he was going to shunt this train and I told him there was no way the signalman would let him do it and said he would have to go to crown point provided there was no block on but if there was he would be knackered and job would have to be cancelled to which he went pale and quiet,  luckily for him there was no block on 

[Reorte]

On 26/10/2019 at 23:22, Nearholmer said:

"I reckon the main problem is that most youngsters don't want to get their hands dirty anymore."

 

I reckon that most people young, old, or in the middle, never really wanted to do physically hard, dirty jobs, ever; given the chance they would take lighter work, in the warm and dry.

 

I also reckon that in the old days most of them had no choice, and that a few found they quite liked the hard and dirty work they were doing, and carried it on as a hobby, but most didn't, because they were glad to be out of it as soon as they could (which in most cases wasn't long before they pegged-out). 

 

But, who cares what I reckon?

 

 

Whilst what you say's definitely true I think there's also quite a difference between doing hard, dirty jobs day in, day out and at the level of a volunteer. Spending a day or two in the rain and cold isn't anywhere near as hard when it isn't followed by spending more days in the rain and cold. There's also an aspect of not wanting to do what you have to do all the time, hence people who are in offices all the time given the chance like to sometimes get their hands dirty. Very little routine working stands up for long-term appeal.

 

I've not been involved in preserved railways but have in mine exploration, which is often cold, dirty, wet and hard work. That's including being involved in some digs through collapses. There was a good variety of ages involved, even if there was a bias towards older (which may simply be due to time available). I enjoyed that for some of my weekends, I'm sure it would've been a very different matter if I was at it every day.

[Nearholmer]

Totally agree: a change is as good as a rest.
 

My remarks were really intended as a counterpoint to the words I quoted at the start of that post.

[johnlambert]

15 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Do counter-productive volunteers ever "get the sack"? Difficult, I should imagine!

 

14 hours ago, sem34090 said:

It is very hard to sack volunteers simply because they are just that and are not paid employees, I should think.

 

I can't speak about railway volunteering but I do volunteer for a car museum and it's interesting to see what things are like on the other side of the tracks.  I have to say that volunteering is one of the best and most rewarding things I do with my time.

 

There has been at least one volunteer "sacked" from the museum, it wasn't a decision taken lightly (from what I can gather) and I think the museum did try to reconcile things much as any employer would.  After that it was a case of not putting them on the rota and removing them from the mailing list (and ensuring museum staff knew not to issue them with a security pass if they did turn up).  But the museum is a professional, commercial organisation with a paid member of staff to coordinate the volunteers and has all the corporate policies and procedures that you would expect.

[Hando]

On 26/10/2019 at 23:22, Nearholmer said:

"I reckon the main problem is that most youngsters don't want to get their hands dirty anymore."

 

I reckon that most people young, old, or in the middle, never really wanted to do physically hard, dirty jobs, ever; given the chance they would take lighter work, in the warm and dry.

 

I also reckon that in the old days most of them had no choice, and that a few found they quite liked the hard and dirty work they were doing, and carried it on as a hobby, but most didn't, because they were glad to be out of it as soon as they could (which in most cases wasn't long before they pegged-out). 

 

But, who cares what I reckon?

 

 

I'm 15 (nearly 16) years old and I have been volunteering on a heritage centre--heritage railway for around 1~2 years now. I'm still getting to grips with a lot of aspects of the line, but I think I'm helping more than hindering any progress on our line. I am the only person under the age of 18 to be regularly volunteering there at the moment.

 

I agree on the fact that not enough of my generation want to go out early in the mornings and do dirty work in all weathers. However I disagree with the fact that they aren't interested in physical work, as I know plenty of people who would willingly go to the gym at 8:00 in the morning. I think the issue is a not the lack of interest in railways or history, but a lack of pride.

I don't know many people who would want to build a railway or paint a wagon or even re-decorate an interior of a building and then say "I did that". That requires time and dedication - and dedication is true hard work.

Of course we must not forget, we all grow up; we get older, we gain jobs, we move away and our interests and priorities change. Thus the real problem for heritage railways is the people they need not being there.                                                                                  

 

 

 

 

---and also the price of it all (the be-all or end-all of all heritage lines): do you have the money? Will it annoy the neighbours? etc. etc..

Edited October 28, 2019 by Narrowgaugebeginner

[Zomboid]

17 hours ago, sem34090 said:

It is very hard to sack volunteers simply because they are just that and are not paid employees, I should think.

Happened to me once. Was basically a personality clash, and I was the expendible 13 year old. In reality was probably best for all concerned, but I still get a bit annoyed about how I was treated when I think about it now, 25 years on...

[Boris]

9 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Having been a visitor to the NYMR since 1987 and regularly for most of the last 15 seasons I have noticed a subtle shift in the style. On my early visits it was still very much a preservation volunteer hobby feel but lately has seemed to be a more professional tourist orientated business, especially with the Whitby through service. I see this as having been a logical progression as this is where income comes from rather than selling old mags from a leaking van in a bay platform. Evolution is essential for survival in any enterprise.

I agree, but many days it feels more like a sausage machine than a preserved railway!

[russ p]

Preserved railways obviously have to be run in a safe and professional manner but they are or were also hobbies for the volunteers. 

I was a volunteer on the NYMR from 79 to 85 (people there helped me join BRin 83)and again in the 90s working on 5061 and made long friends , same with the north Norfolk I was there from 89 to 05.

Can't say much about NYMR has haven't been for a while but the NNR is awful now lots of retired people dressed in gold braid and covered in name badges,  everyone seems to be stationmaster no porters. And the amount of bloody whistle blowing every time a train is dispatched is ridiculous. 

A few years ago I witnessed a train being attempted to be dispatched against a red! Luckily the driver didn't take it. After the train had gone I asked the 'stationmaster ' what he was doing and he gave me some cock and bull story about how he was tired because of steam this and steam that so I made him ring the RO tell him what had happened then go home! Sounds drastic but his actions could have been serious 

Very few people want to undertake restoration projects that involve getting covered in crap and hard labour.  I remember laid on my back in a blizzard fitting recertified air tanks to a DMU no one would do that now.

The other thing which seems to have gone from preserved railways is the social side.

In the 90s we had a big crowd of us who went out in sheringham on Friday and Saturday nights virtually all have now left the railway because it's not fun anymore.  Even back then the drink and drug regulations were in and no one went stupid,  granted on days when we weren't doing much there was some mega sessions. 

But now there are no railway people in the town at all.

If I was subjected to the petty regulations that are present on some railways at work I'd look for another job

The mid Norfolk still seems to have decent volunteers and the bute valley won't tolerate the gold braid brigade 

Popped into see John Jolly at mangapps the other week,  if I lived closer would volunteer there great people there

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, Boris said:

I agree, but many days it feels more like a sausage machine than a preserved railway!

I used to be involved in sports clubs and organising competitions but with all of the regulations nowadays and the pressures from sources of funding to keep improving participation numbers, tick this and that box to justify yourself, flack from players who complain about the way you've done something but won't take up the job themselves, etc, etc, etc, I got out of all committee and volunteer work about five years ago. I didn't do railways because I was often in pressure jobs on the big railway and needed to get away, even stopped modelling them for 20 years.

As the gambling ads say 'When the fun stops, STOP'

Edited October 28, 2019 by TheSignalEngineer

[MrSimon]

I worked in hospitality when I was younger, not through choice, it was the only place that was taking people on - I'd much rather have worked in a factory but the only one that offered shifts that fit round college wasn't hiring... 

[Oldddudders]

I like Russ's story about everyone being in gold braid. Not the voluntary sector, but in the mainstream railway in BR days, I recall the South Western Division Staff Officer - a key manager, well up the ladder, and highly regarded, reduced himself in grade, and became a Leading Railman at Billingshurst, with a massive reduction in salary, of course. He knew where satisfaction at work came from!

[Reorte]

14 hours ago, russ p said:

Very few people want to undertake restoration projects that involve getting covered in crap and hard labour.  I remember laid on my back in a blizzard fitting recertified air tanks to a DMU no one would do that now.

 

Probably increasingly few people who feel they'd have any useful skills in that area. Sure, most of us could slap on paint in the right general area but not much more. I wouldn't feel confident in volunteering for anything practical, just don't have the skills beyond basic DIY. But the bigger reason is that, working all week, I'd loathe to lose weekend time (when I was doing the mine exploration it was usually just a once a month thing).

Edited October 29, 2019 by Reorte