Heritage railways may be running out of steam

[pete_mcfarlane]

13 hours ago, Dava said:

Then we have Midland Railway at Butterley, great Idea back in the 1970s, now hosts all sorts of societies like PRCLT and HMRS doing good work. But look at the visitor experience and the dire TripAdvisor reviews. It is still a dusty part-completed site with a grotty cafe.   Apart from the vintage train a few days a year, what is special or new?

Their grotty Portakabin cafe went couple of years back, there's a new non-grotty one in the station building at Butterley. So things do slowly happens there. The problem is that the rate of improvements may be slower than the rate of decay.

 

The other problem with Butterley from a visitor point of view is the way they dump decaying stock in full view in the middle of the site. There are some steel grain wagons that have been slowly going from immaculate restored condition to rusty wrecks over the 15+ years I've been visiting. 

 

ISTR that one of the poor TripAdvisor reviews had the reviewer complaining that they got to the station and had to wait 30 minutes for the next train. Which suggests that not all of the visitors are familiar with how railways work. 

[papagolfjuliet]

3 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

 

ISTR that one of the poor TripAdvisor reviews had the reviewer complaining that they got to the station and had to wait 30 minutes for the next train. Which suggests that not all of the visitors are familiar with how railways work. 

 

One of the poor reviews for the Bluebell includes the complaint that "People kept blowing whistles."

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, papagolfjuliet said:

 

One of the poor reviews for the Bluebell includes the complaint that "People kept blowing whistles."

If only that were true of the national network it would be a Good Thing. But the Bluebell generally does more than just run out-and-back, so timekeeping matters there too. If, as said above, the family day out is on the wane, then the preserved railways are indeed in peril, because the family, not the gricer, has for many decades been the backbone of the income stream.

 

This thread has much detail on the difficulty of recruiting and retaining young volunteers. I wonder how the age-profile of the gricing visitor looks these days? It is a long time since the visionaries started the movement and saved so much railway and so many locos and vehicles. Steam left the national rails more than 50 years ago. How many younger people are going to carry on their work, even if the railways make them feel welcome, and how many will pay to see the fruits of their labours?

[brack]

I suspect lots of heritage railways have raked in a lot of extra cash from bequests and wills in the past decade. I'd hope they haven't become dependent on it - surely this is bonus money rather than a reliable source of cash. There are lots of big projects getting done (new builds, restorations) perhaps on the back of this.

(In a similar vein you might suggest that model railway manufacturers have stopped chasing family money from kids trainsets and gone all out for the pensioner's disposable income, but without recruiting for the future that'll dry up).

[phil-b259]

44 minutes ago, brack said:

I suspect lots of heritage railways have raked in a lot of extra cash from bequests and wills in the past decade. I'd hope they haven't become dependent on it - surely this is bonus money rather than a reliable source of cash. There are lots of big projects getting done (new builds, restorations) perhaps on the back of this.

(In a similar vein you might suggest that model railway manufacturers have stopped chasing family money from kids trainsets and gone all out for the pensioner's disposable income, but without recruiting for the future that'll dry up).

 

In the Heritage world bequests are usually tied in to specific projects.

 

This is because to miminise the tax bills, bequests are made to charities or trusts. The legislation covering these is quite complex - but basically a charity / trust CANNOT bankroll day to day expenses. Trust / Charity funding is required to effectively be an ‘extra’ and have a clear educational aspect behind it.

 

This is all done to try and avoid private entities dodging their tax liabilities - though given what a Private Eye uncover about dodgy City of London firms if you can afford the right lawyers then there are ways.....

 

Thus a trust / charity like Bluebell Railway Trust can easily justify funding a locomotive / coach / wagon restoration - but cannot pay for coal, lubricants or fitters to repair them, and has to be careful when it comes to overhauls of locos that have been in work previously.

 

The trust can give money for the restoration / construction of new buildings but giving money for routine decorating repairs is not permitted as that should be funded by the Ltd company / PLC.

 

With staff, helping fund an apprentice with the specific aim of keeping key skills alive is OK, spending money on general workshop staff isn’t.

 

The track renewals which have taken place over the past few years have required some careful wording as legal opinion is that replacing the odd rail here, a sleeper there counts as standard wear + tear that cannot be covered by trust funding - however by packaging it up as a project to safeguard the existence of the railway so it can continue to educate future generations it then becomes a ‘restoration project’ and is legally fine.

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 22/08/2019 at 20:49, Alex TM said:

These problems aren't confined to RPSs.  Where I grew up there was a dreadful attitude to young folk at golf and bowling clubs too; one golf course became unplayable over time, while the worst offending bowling green has been built upon - neither wanted folk under 40 to play - it killed the clubs in question.

About 15 years ago my wife became the paid secretary/co-ordinator to an annual event which had been running since 1945. She had some great ideas about moving it forward, getting an improved venue and trade sponsorship to keep finances healthy. At every turn she got opposition and negativity from the committee, to the extent that at a meeting one of them said "If it dies with us it doesn't really matter because we won't be here". Shortly after she threw the towel in, two years later due to bad weather the annual show was a disaster and that was the end of the event for ever.

[brianusa]

22 hours ago, Georgeconna said:

Its the cost for me, Last year was the first time I visited Swanage and did not take a trip on the line, With a family it is just too expensive. I watched the trains go by each day with a handful of seats taken up. £31 pounds from Harmens cross and back, 2 adults and 3 kids. No thanks I took the car and found free parking nearby n the town but bought some stuff in the shop to throw some cash thier way.

 

 

Nothing is cheap any more; it wasn't cheap either when the preservation era started.  Years later not much has changed and locos and stock are getting even older as are the folks who keep them running either financially or physically.  It still costs though no matter how many volunteers there are and if you want to ride the trains, then you have to dig fairly deep.  If not, then it will all go away, all those years of hard work and effort by too few.  Pick up any train mag and there is always a plea to fund one project or another, a bridge here, a boiler there, obviously needed but no money to pay for it. 

      Perhaps some railways are too ambitious, is twenty mile too long or too expensive to maintain?   A couple of miles may be too short but easier to maintain; several short lines are successful and obviously cheaper to run and give as much pleasure to the customers, to whom a train ride is a train ride no matter what pulls it.  Also kids don't succumb to fatigue as they do over a longer trip!  So if we want to keep seeing locos return from the scrap line then we have to support those who try and do so.  After all it costs more than 1/9d to go to the pictures these days!

        Brian.

[Froxfield2012]

The cost of a family day out have certainly risen:  rarely change from £100, I suspect, and maybe more.  I wonder how many of the photographers lining the trackside (especially at Galas and special appearances) make a financial contribution by riding the trains or purchasing food, goods etc?  I am sure many do.  I always try to make that effort but do those of us who go to watch trains always do so and how much difference would it make to revenue. Most of the great railway photographers of the 50s and 60s rarely rode a train?!  At least as a paying customer? 

[Dunsignalling]

10 hours ago, brianusa said:

 

Nothing is cheap any more; it wasn't cheap either when the preservation era started.  Years later not much has changed and locos and stock are getting even older as are the folks who keep them running either financially or physically.  It still costs though no matter how many volunteers there are and if you want to ride the trains, then you have to dig fairly deep.  If not, then it will all go away, all those years of hard work and effort by too few.  Pick up any train mag and there is always a plea to fund one project or another, a bridge here, a boiler there, obviously needed but no money to pay for it. 

      Perhaps some railways are too ambitious, is twenty mile too long or too expensive to maintain?   A couple of miles may be too short but easier to maintain; several short lines are successful and obviously cheaper to run and give as much pleasure to the customers, to whom a train ride is a train ride no matter what pulls it.  Also kids don't succumb to fatigue as they do over a longer trip!  So if we want to keep seeing locos return from the scrap line then we have to support those who try and do so.  After all it costs more than 1/9d to go to the pictures these days!

        Brian.

The thing with the longer lines is that there's enough to see/do/ride on to fill a full day out and, by using Day Rover tickets, it often costs only a pound or two more than one return trip. On some railways, it's the same price. Hence, it is now the most popular ticket on most of the longer railways. They encourage people to stay for the day, browse the shop, buy refreshments etc. All that, if done well, can generate as much revenue as the tickets, and can help boost the review ratings on TripAdvisor etc, too. 

 

There will also be things to see at intermediate stops, which most of the railways publicise in the info they hand out along with tickets. Hopping on and off the train, and planning what to do next, and which train to catch to get there can all add to the "authentic railway experience".

 

For families, all this makes the day more memorable and will usually work out considerably cheaper than shorter visits to two different attractions.  A trip of a couple of miles or so is, by comparison, more like a fairground ride but, unlike a fairground, there are seldom other rides to go on after the first is over. It is therefore harder for the smaller lines to create the "added value" that keeps visitors on-site and (potentially) spending for longer.

 

All that said, the hard fact is that existing volunteers, on Heritage Lines of all sizes, are (mainly) getting on a bit and replacements seem ever harder to come by. That seems to be a much bigger challenge than any other difficulties (like obtaining coal) right now and I can't honestly see it changing much. Exactly how things will pan out over time is uncertain, but I consider that a significant "shake out" in the sector over the coming decade or so is pretty much inevitable.

 

John  

 

 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[tractionman]

On 24/08/2019 at 19:31, Oldddudders said:

 

 

This thread has much detail on the difficulty of recruiting and retaining young volunteers. I wonder how the age-profile of the gricing visitor looks these days? It is a long time since the visionaries started the movement and saved so much railway and so many locos and vehicles. Steam left the national rails more than 50 years ago. How many younger people are going to carry on their work, even if the railways make them feel welcome, and how many will pay to see the fruits of their labours?

 

Absolutely, the heritage railways we have today in GB have largely risen from the tidal wave of interest generated in the 1950s and 1960s, a generation (or two) to whom we owe so much in getting us to where we are today in the preservation world.

 

Sadly, for many of my generation (post-68 ish), even if we have the interest to get involved I suspect, compared to our elders, many will not be able to enjoy our retirement from paid employment til much later, in our 70s rather than 50s, putting a real volunteer squeeze on preserved lines at both ends of the age spectrum, not just the young but the old(er) too. Retiring in my 70s, I may not be quite as agile as I would be if I could retire sooner, in my 50s or 60s, even though given the chance I'd love to be at the sharp end of a steam (or diesel) hauled train on a preserved line, when I get my freedom! 

 

all the best,

 

Keith

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AMJ]

The main item in the main steam news media was about the issue in attracting and keeping staff.  I'm aware that there are issues  with certain railways being far from the population which then adds in quite a lot of time and cost for the staff to travel. 

One issue that needs to be added into the equation which I know some of our staff have considered are the hours that you have worked on your paid job and then at the railway.  Working Time Directive is an issue and I have asked others "how much rest time have you had?"  If you drive a truck, coach or work on the mainline railway and don't get the appropriate rest you will be tired and a danger to yourself and others.

 

Many of those who are employed will probably need a day off from work before and after going to the railway so they are properly rested.  WTD says you need a minimum of 11 hours rest between finishing one job and then the next.

 

Safety critical jobs on the railway are subject to medicals, if the doctor indicates you are unable to drive, fire, guard or be second man etc then you have to do something else,  At the beginning of this year I was given a temporary medical ban but the doctor thinks that might be lifted in the autumn.

 

Many well known lines have financial issues that keep appearing in the railway press and they need to eliminate all debts as they shouldn't be paying x% to banks.

 

Long lines are an issue for passenger fares.  Many shorter lines are about £10 adult fares these days, however at the Middleton we often have family tickets or kids for quid days to attract them.

 

Anyone thinking about helping a preserved railway, join them and do so.  There are benefits that working members can often have free travel at other railways.

[DLPG]

I would add to the mix that some heritage railways do not know how to look after and engage volunteers. Some loose interest very quickly if there is limited progress or something that does not challenge someone personally.

 

I know one railway that the path to becoming a driver starts with a minimum of 50 days on a crossing as they cannot get anyone to cover the role.

 

As a company director managing specifically millennials, it is always a challenge. Our older generation of volunteers are probably not best placed to manage our younger generation. Engagement, quick success and need for instant gratification is something that needs to be understood that makes a lot of youngsters tick. Take the previous statement on 50 turns as a crossing keeper, that will not wash with a younger volunteer. Around a job it could take years to take a step up.

 

Image also never helps. Bloody Roy Cropper!!

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2019 by DLPG

[PhilH]

17 minutes ago, DLPG said:

Engagement, quick success and need for instant gratification is something that needs to be understood that makes a lot of youngsters tick

 

Engagement yes, but for safety critical roles the other two definitely not. Would you want the driver of your train to be someone who's having a go after volunteering on the railway for three months? Or a signalman who hasn't a clue what to do in an emergency because he hasn't thoroughly learnt and understood the job and the rules surrounding it?

 

These aren't toy railways, they bite just the same as mainstream ones. If a volunteer can't understand that and expects instant results then he/ she is probably better off doing something else. Also, and I hate to say it, but some just don't understand the concept of discipline, that even though you are a volunteer and it's not actually your job you can't just act as you please, for the safety of everyone you basically have to do as you're told...some don't or won't get that, again probably better off doing something else.

 

For those that are patient, are willing to learn and accept the rules, regulations and discipline of whatever railway they are volunteering on they can progress as far as they like..please see my earlier reply.

[Nearholmer]

It might be worth looking at parallel heritage-based, volunteer-heavy, day-out-fodder venues, to see how they work the trick.

 

The National Trust is an obvious example, and I would suggest that the way they do it is different, and interesting:

 

- full-time staff and specialist contractors for the vast majority of highly-skilled work, including a high proportion of their catering;

 

- volunteers used in "meet and greet" and "interpretative" roles, and in lower-skilled, labour-intensive restoration and maintenance;

 

- for a significant proportion of locations, per visit entrance fees, which are by no means cheap, and parking fees come on top;

 

- an absolutely massive membership, much of it on the basis that the annual subscription is recovered by two or three "free" visits to locations, with high-quality publications aimed at Mr & Mrs Average and The Little Averages, which pump the message very strongly;

 

- nowadays, a very thoughtful and slow rate of proper acquisition, which is quite a contrast to its approach in earlier years;

 

- they aim smack-bang at the "day out" market, and don't expect to make a go of things on the back of "deep history buffs", the equivalent of gricers, because they know that there are too few of them.

 

This model looks much more sustainable than the typical railway preservation model, and, as I type this, begins to hint at a federated, and even-more-professionalised, future for preserved railways.

 

Crucially, the NT model uses volunteers in a way that is friendly to the potential volunteers ....... it requires commitment, but not "voluntary-enslavement" (I don't mean it quite like that, but can't think of a better way to describe the huge commitment that fulfilling a highly skilled craftsman or operating role on a railway involves).

 

And, NT keep their places very, very neat and tidy, their catering is often well worth travelling for in itself, and their loos are spotless. Those descriptions only apply to some preserved railways.

 

As for meeters, greeters, and interpreters, I don't think I've ever come across one (well, maybe one or two) at a railway, although guards and some station personnel often give it a good go. Preserved railways tend to act like railways, merely transporting people, which is odd really, given that that is not what many of their customers are there for ........ if they really wanted transport to "the other end", they would stay in the car that transported them to "this end". I hazard that visitors want "an experience", and that the human touch, people on-hand to explain things, might help a lot. 

 

Oh, and there are far too many preserved railways, attempting to preserve far too much, especially working locos. 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Dava]

The NT had a purge or cull of their older volunteers a few years ago, it was not handled well which is why I describe it thus. Much Ill feeling & bad PR resulted. Meeters & greeters can handle the customer facing aspects on preserved railways. But Phil is right that the safety-critical trained staff are increasingly the limiting factor on operations. A railway within a whistle of where I live can sometimes have to cancel services for lack of train operating staff. But catch them volunteers young because you can gain experiences as a preserved line volunteer that you're unlikely to find anywhere else. 

 

Dava

[Nearholmer]

Yes, the NT volunteer-cull was both highly painful to those culled, and highly effective in changing the "visitor experience" in a positive way. I haven't encountered one of the Old Guard, who perceived their role as protecting things that used to belong to very posh/rich people from the depredations of the great unwashed in a long while now.

 

And, what I'm gently hinting is that the hefty, highly-skilled, safety-critical roles should more-and-more be filled by paid staff. 

Edited August 27, 2019 by Nearholmer

[298]

Conversely to the NT though, we went to an English Heritage attraction on holiday and before we went in were asked (I might have used the word "accosted" but targeted might be more appropriate) for annual membership- that would have allowed us discount entrance, etc. Now I've banned myself from making such decisions whilst on holiday as ultimately I'm funding a business that needs to do what it has to to survive and thrive in this age, but the downside for them on this occasion is we went away to think about it but haven't gone back. Likewise later on we only had about half an hour to look round a ruined castle and paying nearly £17 for the privilege of doing so didn't represent good value for money, but £68 for a whole day and forty odd miles on a preserved railway was.

[Froxfield2012]

Since my daughter worked in a paid role for the NT I have been surprised that they can get anyone to work for them, paid or volunteer.  Lousy people management and slave labour conditions and pay: at least at that particular venue, which should remain unnamed!  Every year I keep meaning to cancel my membership!!  Maybe this year I will and put the money to something more worthwhile like TR, FR or W&L!!!

[Reorte]

11 hours ago, PhilH said:

For those that are patient, are willing to learn and accept the rules, regulations and discipline of whatever railway they are volunteering on they can progress as far as they like..please see my earlier reply.

 

Patience is something an awful lot of people of all ages could do with learning. The instant gratification attitude needs to be stamped out rather than pandered to, and that's not considering the safety implications you're talking about (which I completely agree with).

 

How much of the problem is simply available time? Younger people are less likely to have the time, it's much easier to ask someone to regularly give up a day a week if they're retired than if they're working full time. It's one of those things I'd ideally like to give a try but I wouldn't be able to stick with losing half my weekend (and it's probably at least an hour's drive each way to any heritage railway).

[Georgeconna]

5 hours ago, 298 said:

Conversely to the NT though, we went to an English Heritage attraction on holiday and before we went in were asked (I might have used the word "accosted" but targeted might be more appropriate) for annual membership- that would have allowed us discount entrance, etc. Now I've banned myself from making such decisions whilst on holiday as ultimately I'm funding a business that needs to do what it has to to survive and thrive in this age, but the downside for them on this occasion is we went away to think about it but haven't gone back. Likewise later on we only had about half an hour to look round a ruined castle and paying nearly £17 for the privilege of doing so didn't represent good value for money, but £68 for a whole day and forty odd miles on a preserved railway was.

 

but £68 for a whole day and forty odd miles on a preserved railway was - Not with my 3 daughters. LOL.

 

I do admit If I was on my own I would not have a problem getting a day ticket on any railway which is good value but keeping the interest of 3 girls from 13 to 8 years old looking a railway stuff for the day would be a problem when they are thinking sea side or water parks!

 

[Rivercider]

I think the changing demographic will affect many organisations relying on volunteers in the future.

 

In the 1980s 1990s and 2000s during my railway career there were redundancies announced every year.

Over that time many of my former co-workers who were affected were in their early and mid 50s , a lot of them career railwaymen (though not necessarily enthusiasts). Many had 20, 30, or more years service, and a final salary pension to look forward to.

Of those I knew quite well I would estimate a third found full time work (often in other parts of the railway network), a third found part time employment (like me), and a third simply finished working. 

I suspect this was repeated across a number of industries. Certainly in my current part time job quite a few of my older co-workers, from a wide range of skilled occupations, now work part time to fund holidays and the like. 

I think I have been very lucky, many of the next generation seem destined to continue working full-time a decade longer than I did,

 

cheers   

[Zomboid]

5 hours ago, Reorte said:

The instant gratification attitude needs to be stamped out rather than pandered to,

I don't disagree with the sentiment, but attitudes are changing, like it or not. Just saying "tough" isn't going to keep anyone on board.

 

I was a volunteer on a heritage railway when I was a teenager, and that basically ended because I couldn't see an achievable way to progress from the entry grade within a timescale that was quick enough to hold my attention. I gave it a couple of weekends a month for about a year and was still in charge of sweeping platforms. I'm not sure the more senior members of staff really knew what to do with a keen but fairly clueless 14 year old.

 

And now I'm involved with a loco that's been under repair for nearly 20 years (and I've been involved for about 15 of those, on and off), which got as far as a loaded test run before breaking itself again... That's going to be delayed gratification when I finally get a ride behind it.

[Nearholmer]

All this talk of “stamping out an appetite for instant gratification” does young people rather a large disservice IMO.

 

Under the right, structured guidance, most youngsters can and do acquire skills and knowledge at a rate that leaves oldsters stuck in the starting-blocks.

 

Those who doubt this might do well to study the Pioneer Railways as existed in former communist countries, or the IMechE annual loco-building contest for trainees, or for that matter, consider the ages at which even modern western nations deem properly-trained youngsters fit to undertake all sorts of mega-demanding roles in the military.

 

Its not a simple matter, of course, because most older volunteers have volunteered in order to indulge their hobby to the full, rather than to run an apprentice-training programme at the weekends.

 

Maybe one answer might be to do exactly the above, and run some serious, reasonably fast-paced, training schemes for newbies. In fact, I think one or two preserved railways already do that. Just needs volunteer trainers!

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

15 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Yes, the NT volunteer-cull was both highly painful to those culled, and highly effective in changing the "visitor experience" in a positive way. I haven't encountered one of the Old Guard, who perceived their role as protecting things that used to belong to very posh/rich people from the depredations of the great unwashed in a long while now.

 

And, what I'm gently hinting is that the hefty, highly-skilled, safety-critical roles should more-and-more be filled by paid staff. 

But unfortunately, steam railways are labour intensive operations, however they are staffed, and a high proportion of the roles are "safety critical".

 

The training is extensive and specialised, unless recruits come from the "big railway" with the necessary abilities already in place. That applies whether those involved are paid or not, whereas the "front-of-house" staff employed by NT/EH will have been selected because they have acquired the necessary people/marketing skills from previous employment across a range of sectors and can be fairly easily indoctrinated into the ways of the organisation. 

 

Paying for a higher-than-sector-average professional staffing level is (allegedly) one of the factors behind the recent/current crisis facing one of our longer heritage lines. Changing the volunteer/professional balance will change the definition of the word "viable" for many of the railways we are considering as well as the calculation of the fares that need to be charged and/or other ways of boosting income that will need to be adopted.

 

Many of the smaller railways, which often hold great appeal for we "enthusiasts", barely survive despite almost complete reliance on volunteer labour and I would expect over half of them to disappear over a fairly short timescale if that changed very much. Unfortunately, I think it's likely to happen anyway and in ten years or so, only the biggest and best-run lines will survive as they will be the only ones capable of handling the visitor throughput necessary to generate sufficient revenue.  

 

John

Edited August 28, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Nearholmer]

Yep, somethings got to change, and my NT comparison was merely positing a different model.

 

Also, I very much agree with your final paragraph ...... I’ve been expecting to read of the first significant ‘implosion’ of a railway preservation centre for a while, and possibly the electric railway museum at Coventry was the one.