Heritage railways may be running out of steam

[Baby Deltic]

Don't they keep buckets of steam in the main stores anymore?

[pete_mcfarlane]

44 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Also, I very much agree with your final paragraph ...... I’ve been expecting to read of the first significant ‘implosion’ of a railway preservation centre for a while, and possibly the electric railway museum at Coventry was the one.

It wasn't really an implosion though - they didn't own the site and the council sold off the land for redevelopment, presumably because it needed the cash.

It was one of an occasional but steady stream of closed schemes that includes Dinting, Ashford, Buxton, the North Downs Steam Railway, the NG railway in Leeds (whose name escapes me), the Market Overton scheme near Grantham in the 1970s, and so on. 

[Mark Saunders]

28 minutes ago, Baby Deltic said:

Don't they keep buckets of steam in the main stores anymore?

 

They are next to the tins of Tartan paint!

[Nearholmer]

Fair point ...... i’d Allowed the earlier closures to leak out of my brain.

 

We’ll have to wait and see.

[pete_mcfarlane]

6 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Fair point ...... i’d Allowed the earlier closures to leak out of my brain.

 

We’ll have to wait and see.

It's actually surprising how few schemes seem to open and then fail. That might just be that the really bad ones never get as far as opening to the public, so they never appeared on our Radar (these days of course, they all have a Facebook pages where you can see their internal meltdowns happening in real time). 

[Gwiwer]

True story.

 

I recently visited friends in Swanage.  As I had arrived by train courtesy of South Western Railway and the Swanage Railway's excellent collaboration on operating a direct service as far as Corfe Castle, and the latter's steam train thence to the end of the line, I was duly seen off at the station afterwards.

 

A Bulleid light Pacific was on duty and hissed in with the Down working.  First of all my friends - who are no strangers to (third-rail electric) train travel - asked how it got from one track to the other and had to have the workings of points explained.  But as the loco hissed and chuffed away I was then asked "Is this a steam train?" followed by  "But I thought steam trains went out in Queen Victoria's time."

 

We clearly have a lot of education to do.  A few lines might have an education officer or similar, or a volunteer tasked with such things.  But when every available hand is required to simply keep the wheels turning and the money coming in then we have a problem before we begin to explain things.  There might be an assumption that the younger generations know what steam trains are.  Some boys, no doubt, still harbour dreams of driving a train but whether they see their charge as Thomas or Sir Frederick Pile is a moot point.  

 

When a well-known heritage railway, which operates both steam and diesel traction, fails to present the message that this is a steam train and what that entails - and this is not levelled as a criticism of SR staff nor volunteers in any way - then we are preparing to fail.  Steam trains in daily service are well outside the living memory of a great many of us and of those who visit the railways in question.  

 

There needs to be a serious sock-pulling exercise in terms of interpretation and explanation as to why these trains exist and why the line they run on has survived or been restored.  Hard-pressed staff cannot be spared to do this in too many cases, I suspect, but where (for example) local schools are able to take a whole class of 6-7 year olds along to their nearby station, have a short presentation on the realities of the whole "Thomas" thing and then be taken to see the hissing, wheezing, steam-emitting and firey beast at the platform end (no, not a Harry Potter dragon!!!) followed by a train ride then we may engage to a greater degree.  Follow that up in the manner that a few of our heritage railways now do with programs for younger people which may lead to job opportunities in adult life and we might have a survival plan.  Could the smaller operations manage that?  I believe one or two do.  I doubt they all could.  The larger railways should make it a priority where they don't already.

 

Thoughts?

[Nearholmer]

My thought is: what an excellent post!

 

What you are describing is what I termed “interpretive” work.

 

incidentally, and rather proving the point, I popped into a railway preservation centre today, and the most engaged children, and their parents, were in a TPO, where a guy was explaining to them how a TPO worked, helping them have a go at sorting mail, showing them the letterbox on the outside etc ...... he was interpreting an exhibit, very ably.

[Gwiwer]

We live in an era when many trains are electric and the fuel source is remote and of little consequence to the daily user.  Even diesel trains are akin to the private car in that a fuel tank is periodically filled, a button is pressed or a key turned and the engine starts.

 

It's not that simple of course.

 

But when we start to explain steam traction we are explaining that men (not women back in the day) dug holes in the ground, worked in atrocious conditions to bring rocks to the surface, those rocks are then burned to heat water and that water becomes steam which is harnessed to create motion ...... in 2019 that is an alien way of life to anyone much under 50 years of age.  For most people 25 and under coal mining is something they only read about in history classes.  

 

Thomas is a great starting point but there is so much more which can be taught, demonstrated, interpreted and passed on as learning to the younger generations of today.  We will at best engage a very few of them.  But if we do not succeed with those few who will take over as the current generation of steam loco crew, many in their 70s and some possibly more, retire or are otherwise no longer able to keep the fires lit and the wheels turning?

[nick_bastable]

1 hour ago, Gwiwer said:

.

 

But when we start to explain steam traction we are explaining that men (not women back in the day) dug holes in the ground, worked in atrocious conditions to bring rocks to the surface, those rocks are then burned to heat water and that water becomes steam which is harnessed to create motion ...... in 2019 that is an alien way of life to anyone much under 50 years of age.  For most people 25 and under coal mining is something they only read about in history classes.  

 

sorry I think you will find both women and children employed in early coal mines below ground

 

http://nationalminingmuseum.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/FF11-Women-MiningCommunities.pdf

 

Nick

Edited August 28, 2019 by nick_bastable
edit to add url

[Guest JiLo]

I volunteered on a heritage railway for a while a couple of years ago until I was essentially 'forced out'.  I went every weekend at least one day, most weekends both days, and also went along during the week on time off from my day job.  I was able to offer various skills which, I was told more than once, 'we need more people who can turn a hand at more things', however I was finding my work would be sabotaged when I helped out or if I had finished off a job that had been left dragging on for ages. 

 

I eventually worked out that it was one of the other volunteers who would then spread rumours about the quality of my work, and then about me personally.  This person was in with the bricks, and I felt some of the other volunteers turning against me, so I left.  I kept in touch with some of the volunteers, some of them have also left because of the same person, and others who will not go in when they know that person is going to be there

[royaloak]

On 23/08/2019 at 20:12, Mallard60022 said:

moved to Cornwall well over 10 years ago and visited the Bodmin and whatever line to see the Pacific he drove often out of Nine Elms. He was still quite young and fit. Bodmin the WC Pacific was there and he went to speak with the footplate crew and was made as welcome as a wet winter's day in the middle of Dartmoor.

As Bodmin was a visiting engine I believe it was only driven by its own crew, none of the resident crews got to 'have a go', I might be wrong but that springs to mind, maybe if there is someone on here from the Bodmin and Wenford railway they could confirm one way or the other.

[The White Rabbit]

Thinking about the 'interpretation' issue, 'Peter's Railway' is very popular and Chris Vine has an almost religious passion for educating people about steam and railways. I used to be a retail manager on a heritage line and we stocked his range. Sales were good and I thought the technical side was explained very well. 

 

If I can plug the [1903 NER] autocar, we are looking for volunteers who will act as explainers/interpreters for our passengers.  

 

And further to Gwiwer's posts, I remember some years ago being entertained and informed by a 'street theatre' style performance by Platform 4 from the NRM - two great performers who played various roles in cameos. Something like that could really engage 'ordinary' visitors and bring steam railways into context. 

[jonny777]

5 hours ago, Georgeconna said:

 

but £68 for a whole day and forty odd miles on a preserved railway was - Not with my 3 daughters. LOL.

 

I do admit If I was on my own I would not have a problem getting a day ticket on any railway which is good value but keeping the interest of 3 girls from 13 to 8 years old looking a railway stuff for the day would be a problem when they are thinking sea side or water parks!

 

 

As a grandparent I agree with this. Once the children have looked at the engine for a few minutes, and then boarded the train; what is there for them to do? Sit in a seat and look out of the window. This may be ok if the journey is relatively short, but some are well over an hour for a round trip and cost over £50 for a family ticket. 

 

Colouring books and other forms of 'bring it yourself' entertainment can be useful, but use them at home and save the £50+. Bigger NT properties usually have some form of adventure playground, or at least a garden where the children can run around and use up a lot of energy. Running around on a station platform is not advised, and picnic areas are mainly just a number of benches next to the station.  

 

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but the younger generation don't have nostalgic memories to fall back on. 

[PhilH]

1 hour ago, royaloak said:

As Bodmin was a visiting engine I believe it was only driven by its own crew, none of the resident crews got to 'have a go', I might be wrong but that springs to mind, maybe if there is someone on here from the Bodmin and Wenford railway they could confirm one way or the other.

 

That would have been atypical if that did happen. Obviously I can only speak as to usual practice on the Mid Hants Railway (who were the custodians of 34016) which is to send an owners rep with any of our engines which visit other railways. It would have been highly unusual for us to send a crew, even more unusual for us to drive and fire the thing for the day on others' railways. We certainly wouldn't have the autonomy to dictate who visits the footplate, that is the rostered driver's prerogative.

 

We send reps with our engines to make sure that all goes well with it, we usually prep (or assist with prep on) the thing and then ride out with whatever railway it's on's rostered crew just to make sure their driving/firing  technique suits the engine. Mostly after that we just let them get on with it, we could be invited to have a go on the handle (or shovel depending on what grade goes out with the engine) but I've never known us to have to crew the things on another railway in the 30 plus years I've been on the MHR and doing said owner's repping.

Edited August 28, 2019 by PhilH

[Beacon]

4 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

True story.

 

I recently visited friends in Swanage.  As I had arrived by train courtesy of South Western Railway and the Swanage Railway's excellent collaboration on operating a direct service as far as Corfe Castle, and the latter's steam train thence to the end of the line, I was duly seen off at the station afterwards.

 

A Bulleid light Pacific was on duty and hissed in with the Down working.  First of all my friends - who are no strangers to (third-rail electric) train travel - asked how it got from one track to the other and had to have the workings of points explained.  But as the loco hissed and chuffed away I was then asked "Is this a steam train?" followed by  "But I thought steam trains went out in Queen Victoria's time."

 

We clearly have a lot of education to do.  A few lines might have an education officer or similar, or a volunteer tasked with such things.  But when every available hand is required to simply keep the wheels turning and the money coming in then we have a problem before we begin to explain things.  There might be an assumption that the younger generations know what steam trains are.  Some boys, no doubt, still harbour dreams of driving a train but whether they see their charge as Thomas or Sir Frederick Pile is a moot point.  

 

When a well-known heritage railway, which operates both steam and diesel traction, fails to present the message that this is a steam train and what that entails - and this is not levelled as a criticism of SR staff nor volunteers in any way - then we are preparing to fail.  Steam trains in daily service are well outside the living memory of a great many of us and of those who visit the railways in question.  

 

There needs to be a serious sock-pulling exercise in terms of interpretation and explanation as to why these trains exist and why the line they run on has survived or been restored.  Hard-pressed staff cannot be spared to do this in too many cases, I suspect, but where (for example) local schools are able to take a whole class of 6-7 year olds along to their nearby station, have a short presentation on the realities of the whole "Thomas" thing and then be taken to see the hissing, wheezing, steam-emitting and firey beast at the platform end (no, not a Harry Potter dragon!!!) followed by a train ride then we may engage to a greater degree.  Follow that up in the manner that a few of our heritage railways now do with programs for younger people which may lead to job opportunities in adult life and we might have a survival plan.  Could the smaller operations manage that?  I believe one or two do.  I doubt they all could.  The larger railways should make it a priority where they don't already.

 

Thoughts?

 

Completely agree with this. The national curriculum for history at primary school includes:  "a significant turning point in British history, for example, the first railways." 

 

As part of a planned topic on the development of the railways with 7-9 years olds recently, I was trying to organise an educational visit much as you suggest here and found it very difficult. Most venues offered nothing in the way of educational materials or anyone who could talk to the children - it was just a group ticket rate and that's it. Several implied it was a desire for the future. I understand why this is with tight budgets etc but as I had to plan this to be led by teachers who didn't know what I do about the railways, the current offer just wouldn't have achieved as much. 

 

There is a lot of potential here to capture the interest of young children and make some important links to science and technology as well as history. This would be worthwhile investment in the future of many such heritage railways. 

[Nearholmer]

IoWSR is quite child-friendly compared with most, in that their big covered store / exhibition hall includes some quite good "hands on" stuff. There's a mock-up loco that has to be fired with wooden coal IIRC. And, Steam at Swindon has a signal-box where one gets to pull levers etc.

 

One thing I've never seen at a railway-themed centre is any form of computer-based, interactive stuff, which kids love. Driving and firing a simulated loco, without running the boiler dry and having a plug fuse, or over-running signals and having a crash, is the sort of thing I mean ...... explosions and crashes have definite child appeal. 

 

Does the NRM, or any other big museum have such things?

 

 

[Gwiwer]

There are problems that heritage railways would have to overcome in order to provide suitable education facilities.  

 

Staff training is one.  Safeguarding and working with children as a minimum.  Ideally a teaching background to understand the ways people learn.   

The intermittent nature of school visits is another factor as it works against the employment of a full-time education person while matching part-time availability to class requirements is a rather inexact science.  Such things could be undertaken by volunteers but only with the same training and background.

Subject matter needs to be matched to the individual groups.  That isn't as easy as it sounds either.  And an apparently simple thing like a group booking on a train can present issues too; there must be a working toilet, there might need to be ramp assistance for boarding and if compartment stock is used then pro-active supervision of the children can be much harder than in open saloons.  And lunch.  Do the kids bring their own or is it supplied?  If the former what arrangements are made for the one who forgot; if the latter then any dietary requirements need to be known and catered for.

 

And there's often one who turns out to be genuinely scared of the engine when it makes noise and emits steam and smoke.

 

So not as simple as laying on a reserved carriage and perhaps assigning a volunteer to wear a hi-viz while they accompany a group on board.

[brack]

38 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Does the NRM, or any other big museum have such things?

Locomotion at shildon have several such things - a game to pack open wagons correctly, a sort of double inglenook shunting puzzle, a game where you have to watch a 4 aspect colour light signal change and press the correct button (proceed, proceed with caution or whatever) for what it means. It speeds up as time goes on, and if you get one wrong or time runs out you get the score.

My 6 year old daughter enjoys playing all of them, her record is 26 signals (I once did 31).

I agree about the idea of simulating driving or something similar.

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

17 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

It wasn't really an implosion though - they didn't own the site and the council sold off the land for redevelopment, presumably because it needed the cash.

It was one of an occasional but steady stream of closed schemes that includes Dinting, Ashford, Buxton, the North Downs Steam Railway, the NG railway in Leeds (whose name escapes me), the Market Overton scheme near Grantham in the 1970s, and so on. 

 

I can't really comment on the others but I know a bit about Dinting.

 

It was mainly a falling out with the owner of the land. However it was coming to the end of it's natural life anyway. It suffered the same fate as Steamport Southport and Steamtown Carnforth. The market had changed. Whilst in the 1970s people were quite happy to see a few steam engines and have a short ride of a few hundred yards, by the 1980s they wanted a proper journey and possibly even a meal. None were failures though and two of the societies are still going strong at different sites. Whilst Carnforth is now West Coast Railways.

 

 

 

Jason

[Mallard60022]

15 hours ago, royaloak said:

As Bodmin was a visiting engine I believe it was only driven by its own crew, none of the resident crews got to 'have a go', I might be wrong but that springs to mind, maybe if there is someone on here from the Bodmin and Wenford railway they could confirm one way or the other.

I believe it was when Bodmin was just returned to service. I have no idea what actually happened but the Chair of the railway apologised and did not mention who were on the footplate. No interest to me one way or another but the gentleman concerned was very much not made welcome and any decent and ex railway crew would have at least asked where he had worked and when.

Poor form. 

[royaloak]

1 minute ago, Mallard60022 said:

I believe it was when Bodmin was just returned to service. I have no idea what actually happened but the Chair of the railway apologised and did not mention who were on the footplate. No interest to me one way or another but the gentleman concerned was very much not made welcome and any decent and ex railway crew would have at least asked where he had worked and when.

Poor form. 

I have always found the B&WR very welcoming and am surprised at the 'welcome' he received there.

[Mallard60022]

5 minutes ago, royaloak said:

I have always found the B&WR very welcoming and am surprised at the 'welcome' he received there.

I was at the time and was back when I helped at the Blundell. However it is always a case of there are two sides to every story and I know not what happened and I will only say that a nicer bloke you could probably never meet.

[Mallard60022]

With PH'so reply above I fully agree of course about the critical role in running get the trains. Essential of course. However the op was about the shortage of people coming forward. These operations need to get to grips with millennials or whatever us old gits are called (geezers?) and sort out how to recruit and retain or they will gradually fade out of business. 

Most of us if willing and fit etc will be understanding of 'the need to work at it cleaning bogs and picking up litter,  and I for one made meeting and greeting my 'role' so that others could do the technical stuff and that was enough for me. Other recruits need mentoring or they will drift away.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Re - "Interpretation Officers".

 

Might not be necessary to get one in full time but employ (contract) on an ad hoc basis. Could be a knowledgable retired teacher or similar. Or it could be someone from the Local Authority. They usually have someone to explain their country parks, heritage sites, etc.

[Mallard60022]

3 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Re - "Interpretation Officers".

 

Might not be necessary to get one in full time but employ (contract) on an ad hoc basis. Could be a knowledgable retired teacher or similar. Or it could be someone from the Local Authority. They usually have someone to explain their country parks, heritage sites, etc.

Well my background until 1986 was as Primary Teacher and then Theatre until 1992 alongside Driving Instructor. Following that I worked in Road Safety Education, involving on road cyclist trying for Schools. Was I ever asked about my background when I approached as a volunteer on The Bluebell and Mid Hants and then Barrow Hill? Nope. Did I ever mention these experiences? Yup. Did anyone notice? Nope!

First thing I have been asked in other areas of volunteering was "....what is your background in work and leisure activity?" In fact I almost got a job at a school with a MR Club and my Road Safety career came from my previous working and leisure experiences. 

The successful if not financially viable HR Railway set ups tend to pick up on this sort of informal 'interview '. Others need to ASAP.