Bay platforms on GWR stations 1930/40s

[GWR_Modeller]

Hi,

I have been planning a gwr layout with a mainline through station set in 1930s/40s.  I want to have bay platforms for branch, auto trains and parcels vans and similar.  Is it typical (or acceptable) for trains to run straight into the bays from the mainlines or should the trains reverse into the bays?  What are the operational issues?

Regards, Paul

[mozzer models]

Think of the bays as a terminus station

Trains would mostly run in to them from the branch but if its for parcels van then it could be backed in to the bay

 

[eastglosmog]

After 1906, Kingham (aka Chipping Norton Junction) on the OWW had a loop on the Up side into which trains from both parts of the Banbury and Cheltenham Direct (i.e. Chipping Norton and Bourton on the Water sections) could run into and out of without reversing.  Trains could carry on to Oxford without reversing (though I don't know if any did).  Reversal would have been needed for any train coming from Worcester wanting to go up either branch, though again I don't think this happened much if at all.

[The Stationmaster]

The only potential problem with bays at a through station is that they would require a facing connection to access them if they were used to terminate trains and of course such connections were frowned on.  But in some cases traffic needs meant that there was really no alternative because places were simply too busy to allow trains to be shunted or running round in order to make the shunt was not necessarily a simple task.  So some places did have bays accessed by a facing connection - e.g. Reading (east end), Patney & Chirton, and Pontypool Road (south end) but in some cases (not Patney) working them then required either an auto train, a turnover engine, or the train to shunt out to run round.

 

I think it is fair to say that in the vast majority of cases bays for branch trains were not accessed via the main lines but directly from the branch although that obviously involved a facing connection or crossover if the branch happened to be double line but the facing connection would of course be on the branch.

 

But - I emphasise - there were a few exceptions and it all depends whether you can sensibly justify one in the back story of your layout and then get the track layout believable (as I am planning to do as it happens  ).

[caradoc]

Oxford station in steam days had Up and Down bays (and sidings) at the north end. From looking at the signalling diagram in 'The Heart of the Great Western' (Adrian Vaughan, Silver Link Publishing 1994) trains could both arrive into and depart from the Up side bay, but could only depart from the Down side bay.

[The Johnster]

Most big stations had bays, and bays accounted for everything except the main line through services at Pontypool Road; Monmouth, Neath, Eastern Valley low level.  Cardiff General's Platform 5 was a double sided bay with platform faces on both sides, used by the Porthcawl trains, but very useful for loading parcels which could be done more quickly here from both sides of the vehicle.  IIRC Swindon's bays were like this as well.

 

Main line junctions with branch bays generally had the capacity to run the branch train in and out without fouling the mains; Llantrisant had them on the up and down sides for the Penygraig and Cowbridge branches respectively.  But this was not universal, and Wellington (Salop) had an odd arrangment in which the Much Wenlock stock was gravity shunted.  Llanelly (steam age spelling) had up and down bays that decanted on to the main lines over the level crossing for the Llandeilo trains.

 

Gloucester's down bay, used by the Herefords and later the Newport stopper dmus, also decanted directly out on the down main.

[GWR_Modeller]

I admit that it was the facing point issue I was concerned about.  I have looked through some station track plans and it appears there is a more flexible approach to these as time progresses.  The qty I have looked at is small so that might not be statistically significant.  I wondered whether the technology of facing point locks, track circuits or something them safer over time or whether it was the increasing traffic made them a necessity.

 

The rebuilds at bigger stations seem to include more options for trains to call at different platforms and so there were more facing points.  Is that a valid conclusion?

 

The provisional decision I have made is to have an up bay with an engine release and siding which faces the up platform line, there is an up thro' line as well, so that seems a reasonable thing to do.  Then branch trains which join the main line a few miles north (off scene) can run in and terminate in the bay.  It does mean an engine has to shunt a parcels van onto/off the rear of a parcels train.  

 

At the other end of the station on the down side the branch train can the run into the branch bay but not mainline trains.  That makes it awkward for down trains to use the bay.  So I might put another on the down side at the same end as the up bay.  I will have to do some work on any rail to see if it fits as the mileage yard is at that end as well.

 

Thanks for your comments, information and advice.

[melmerby]

Birmingham Snow Hill had bay platforms on both island platforms, facing north.

The track layout, however was quite complex and it wasn't straight into the bay off the main line.

[The Stationmaster]

38 minutes ago, GWR_Modeller said:

I admit that it was the facing point issue I was concerned about.  I have looked through some station track plans and it appears there is a more flexible approach to these as time progresses.  The qty I have looked at is small so that might not be statistically significant.  I wondered whether the technology of facing point locks, track circuits or something them safer over time or whether it was the increasing traffic made them a necessity.

 

The rebuilds at bigger stations seem to include more options for trains to call at different platforms and so there were more facing points.  Is that a valid conclusion?

 

The provisional decision I have made is to have an up bay with an engine release and siding which faces the up platform line, there is an up thro' line as well, so that seems a reasonable thing to do.  Then branch trains which join the main line a few miles north (off scene) can run in and terminate in the bay.  It does mean an engine has to shunt a parcels van onto/off the rear of a parcels train.  

 

At the other end of the station on the down side the branch train can the run into the branch bay but not mainline trains.  That makes it awkward for down trains to use the bay.  So I might put another on the down side at the same end as the up bay.  I will have to do some work on any rail to see if it fits as the mileage yard is at that end as well.

 

Thanks for your comments, information and advice.

Basically down to traffic changes and a reduced fear of facing points (which meant the Railway Inspectorate gradually became more amenable to approving track layouts which included them).  In some cases of course there was no alternative - look at the south end of Pontypool Road. 

 

Notwithstanding the odd example of Patney & Chirton (which was not absolutely unique but came pretty close to it on a GWR main line route) the essential thing to avoid was the use of double slips for facing access to anything from a running line - mainly because they were more difficult and expensive to maintain.   So in soem cases you could find arrangements into a bay line which were very much akin to the required method of laying out a double line to single line junction. 

[spikey]

On 24/08/2019 at 10:31, The Stationmaster said:

 ... a turnover engine.

 

Sorry, but that's a new one to me so I have to ask ...

[Fat Controller]

32 minutes ago, spikey said:

 

Sorry, but that's a new one to me so I have to ask ...

It's an engine that's already at the destination, which could attach to the rear of the incoming train, to release its loco, which then does the same on the next working

[DCB]

Classic model railway Bays were not that common on GWR Junction stations. Exeter had one for the Exe valley accessed by a facing connection off the main line but I am struggling to think of another.

The GW didn't need Bays. Ooop North working folk were illiterate so trains had to wait in the same platform every evening at rush hour or folk found themselves on wrong train, down south folk were also illiterate (Schools came in around 1865) but couldn't afford to use trains (still can't) so there was no need for so many platforms and the GW economised by not providing many.    It was however handy if the Branch train didn't affect the main line so extra platforms or bays were sometimes provided (Grudgingly)

Newton Abbott had a separate platform for Moretonhampstead as did Liskeard for Looe,  Liskeard being at right angles to the main line

Savernake had a bay accessed only from the Marlborough branch with facing and trailing connections to the branch, but no direct access from bay to main line. I think Newbury was similar. Kemble had a bay for Tetbury and the Branch access was by running in to the bay and reversing out.  Of course the bay held quite a few wagons not the one coach we modellers like to build.  Swindon, had bays for locals,  Several locals departed at very nearly the same time in the evening rush so trains had to have somewhere to wait before loading (Like Oop North Swindon had well paid workers).   

Neither Tiverton junction (for Hemyock)   Totnes (For Ashburton)   Brent (For Kingsbridge)  or             ( for Princetown) had dead end bays, Tiverton had two for the Tiverton Junction branch but again accessed only from the branch.

There probably isn't a prototype layout to suit your needs

Our junction station (WR 1950s)  have had a bay accessed from the main line, as the junction was imagined to be some way down the line.  Autos terminated in the bay but the workmans had to arrive at a through platform, run round and back into the bay.  Our previous layout it was like Savernake and bay access was by taking the branch and backing in or out.    Have you a draft track plan we can advise on?

[melmerby]

Clarbeston Road had a bay platform directly accessed from the main line with the same at Whitland, Aylesbury had a dock on the up side accessed by a facing point from the down main.

Although not common there were, from a quick look at the first volume of RH Clark's GWR stations, quite a few around.

[BMS]

Penarth Town (BR(WR), GWR, TVR, CP&BJR) had bays on the up and down sides;; latterly Cadoxton autotrains used the up side bay(misnomer in a sense since the track went down both ways. In early days I believe at least the up side bay was accessed by passing purple aspect signals.

[Compound2632]

I hope to stand corrected if wrong but my understanding is that at many junctions with branches - not necessarily Great Western - an arriving branch train would run onto the main via a trailing connection and unload at the main line platform, run round using the trailing crossovers on the main, and then set back into the bay platform to await its next departure - which would be directly onto the branch, clear of the main. The point being that clearing the train of passengers and parcels could be done quickly.

[TheQ]

Further down the line from Marlborough at Ludgershall there were two bays in the former MSWJR station the last line to be grouped into the GWR. The down  bay was always used conventionally, pull in on the main line,  run round while the passengers get off,  then put the train in the bay

 

The other bay (up) used for the branch line  was sometimes used conventionally, but also it's recorded, if the other mainline was in use,  they would let the passengers off , then reverse up hill on the mainline,  then pull forward,  letting gravity  run the carriages into the bay.  Then the loco would reattatch. I've not seen any photo of a loco going into a siding first at that station. 

 

The former MSWJR that became GWR stations, Savernake  , Marlborough and Ludgershall track plans are here http://www.swindonsotherrailway.co.uk/

[Harlequin]

23 hours ago, GWR_Modeller said:

I admit that it was the facing point issue I was concerned about.  I have looked through some station track plans and it appears there is a more flexible approach to these as time progresses.  The qty I have looked at is small so that might not be statistically significant.  I wondered whether the technology of facing point locks, track circuits or something them safer over time or whether it was the increasing traffic made them a necessity.

 

The rebuilds at bigger stations seem to include more options for trains to call at different platforms and so there were more facing points.  Is that a valid conclusion?

 

The provisional decision I have made is to have an up bay with an engine release and siding which faces the up platform line, there is an up thro' line as well, so that seems a reasonable thing to do.  Then branch trains which join the main line a few miles north (off scene) can run in and terminate in the bay.  It does mean an engine has to shunt a parcels van onto/off the rear of a parcels train.  

 

At the other end of the station on the down side the branch train can the run into the branch bay but not mainline trains.  That makes it awkward for down trains to use the bay.  So I might put another on the down side at the same end as the up bay.  I will have to do some work on any rail to see if it fits as the mileage yard is at that end as well.

 

Thanks for your comments, information and advice.

It's quite difficult to visualise the station layout from that description but I think you're suggesting that the down branch would cross the main lines to a bay on the up side. Is that right?

 

Any chance of a track plan?

 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Harlequin

[GWR_Modeller]

Hi.

Still sketching a track plan.  But imagine mainlines left to right with down line upper most, and an up main and up platform line.  Branch bay top left, down bay right top and up bay bottom right.

 

So branch trains as suggested earlier by TheJohnster enter bay directly, down trains reverse into down bay and up trains drive into up bay from up platform line.  Terminating trains as follows: -the branch trains being auto gear fitted panniers/1400 and trailer; - The down train a pannier in a two trailrrs sandwich; -uptrains various if I can fit in an engine release and siding. Okay i know it is twee but I like auto train images and regretably the period is too late for a steam railmotor.

 

I like Compound2632 and TheQ's description of operations, very useful.  It clarified for me how things worked.  Platforms seemed to be labelled with destinations (not necessarily on track plans but in station signage).  It now makes sense that lower priority trains arrive and unload then move to wait in branches and bays for connecting mainline thro trains before departing.  So platform names indicate departure destinations for platforms not arrivals, I feel a little stupid not realising that.   Track plans make more sense.   That means less unpleasant shunting operations for passengers and it makes sense for bays to be trailing.

Thanks.

[John_Hughes]

The GWR added a bay (on the other side of the level crossing to the south of the existing station) at Barmouth to relieve the summer pressure on platform space, and it was regularly used by the Dolgelley (incorrect GWR spelling, so apologies) shuttles. It was also the only passenger platform I know of with a loading gauge just beyond the platform!

[MidlandRed]

Stourbridge Junction is a good example of a bay platform - the Stourbridge Town shuttle running into the bay platform on the west directly from the north without entering the main platform. There was a facing junction south of the station and two tracks went through the west bay - this is complicated by the fact that north of the station the east track was used for freight workings down through the Town station to the wharf, the west track going to the town platform and terminating beyond. The Town class 122 from the late 50s shuttle operated to and from the bay platform, which also linked to the northbound main via a trailing connection. This station also had an east side bay. There were also two crossovers enabling movements to and from each Town branch track in and north of the bay. 

 

Interesting to read the Snow Hill comments above - in reality the south facing bay platforms on the west side were beyond the tunnel - I.e Moor Street station (no through train platforms). 

[melmerby]

28 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

Stourbridge Junction is a good example of a bay platform - the Stourbridge Town shuttle running into the bay platform on the west directly from the north without entering the main platform. There was a facing junction south of the station and two tracks went through the west bay - this is complicated by the fact that north of the station the east track was used for freight workings down through the Town station to the wharf, the west track going to the town platform and terminating beyond. The Town class 122 from the late 50s shuttle operated to and from the bay platform, which also linked to the northbound main via a trailing connection. This station also had an east side bay. There were also two crossovers enabling movements to and from each Town branch track in and north of the bay. 

 

Interesting to read the Snow Hill comments above - in reality the south facing bay platforms on the west side were beyond the tunnel - I.e Moor Street station (no through train platforms). 

IIRC Stourbridge Jn. has never had a bay platform directly running off the Main. (which was the original post)

In GWR days it had a loop on each platform face and in 1947 the two lines towards Town were independent singles.

Today the bay is isolated from the rest of the network by a GF.

[MidlandRed]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

IIRC Stourbridge Jn. has never had a bay platform directly running off the Main. (which was the original post)

In GWR days it had a loop on each platform face and in 1947 the two lines towards Town were independent singles.

Today the bay is isolated from the rest of the network by a GF.

 

Indeed you're right - however the northbound loop platform effectively was used as a bay by the Stourbridge Town shuttle (as you say, it is now a bay). Although operating as single tracks down the Town branch, the passenger service effectively had to cross tracks beyond the station, as did the freight. 

 

As you say, not exactly the layout the OP had in mind although an interesting example of operation. 

 

In BR days the class 122 escaped via the loop on to the main line when swapped over or for servicing. 

Edited August 26, 2019 by MidlandRed

[tomparryharry]

Pontypridd was all bays. of the 7 platforms, only platforms 1 & 6 were through platform faces.

 

Ian.

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

Pontypridd was all bays. of the 7 platforms, only platforms 1 & 6 were through platform faces.

 

Ian.

And the through platforms also effectively had a bay as well!

 

On 25/08/2019 at 12:49, DavidCBroad said:

Classic model railway Bays were not that common on GWR Junction stations. Exeter had one for the Exe valley accessed by a facing connection off the main line but I am struggling to think of another.

 

Pontypool Road - where the bay was set in the middle of the island platform just to be different.  Shrewsbury (if you regard the Cambrian as a branch although the branch junction was not at Severn Bridge Jcn of course) and of course Reading Main Line West although in that case the bays were accessed off the Berks & Hants Line rather than the Main or Relief Lines so it could be said that teh access was only off the branch, even if it was used by West of England trains as well as the B&H branch trains.

[tomparryharry]

6 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

And the through platforms also effectively had a bay as well!

 

Pontypool Road - where the bay was set in the middle of the island platform just to be different.  Shrewsbury (if you regard the Cambrian as a branch although the branch junction was not at Severn Bridge Jcn of course) and of course Reading Main Line West although in that case the bays were accessed off the Berks & Hants Line rather than the Main or Relief Lines so it could be said that teh access was only off the branch, even if it was used by West of England trains as well as the B&H branch trains.

 

Yes Mike, quite right. Pontypridd had (until 1970) platform 2 , 3, 4 & 5, all bays. Platform 6 was the down through side, and platform 7 was Newport, Caerphilly, Llantrisant & Cowbridge bay.  Platform 7 was renumbered to platform 2 upon rationlisation.  All of the relief lines were set up for passenger work, although by my time, it was freight only.  I'd guess you'd know more about that than I can recall.