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Equipment sources for heritage railways


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I have a minor involvement with the signalling design work for the L&BR’s extension from Woody Bay to Blackmoor and beyond.

 

It is apparent that some parts of the installations (eg track-circuits, ‘token out’ releases etc) will involve electro-mechanical interlocking with the lever-frames [#], so there will be a need for items such as lever locks and circuit controllers etc. It is rumoured that such things are almost impossible to obtain now – we would be happy to do ‘swops’ with other heritage groups if we were fortunate to have what they might want in return.

 

Can anyone suggest the best place(s) to start looking please?

 

# Lever-frames types as yet undefined, but might be a mixture of Stevens-type ‘knee’ frames and ex-WR horizontal tappet ground-frames.

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I don't have any involvement with S&T work on the heritage railway I am a volunteer on but do know that much of our signalling equipment has come via contacts in Network Rail.  With the current removal of old mechanical boxes I suspect this is probably the only was of obtaining materials before the scrap man has them.  So make contact with NR explaining what you want and see if you get anywhere.  If looking for new stuff I suspect only somewhere like India is making any.  It's where things like vacuum brake seals come from nowadays.

 

Tony Comber

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Very little seems to come up on NR lists - I suspect it is either scrap and no good for anything else or taken for spares.  I know we had a job - even with excellent 'inside' contacts - getting hold of circuit controller for a Reading frame back in 1986/87 because tehy were usually being returned to stores for pairs and we had to go direct to Permali for insulated fishplates (although they weren't too expensive even where 'lifts' were involved).  Mechanical locking components tend to be in short supply but new manufacture is not impossible and you can cut your own tappets from stock strip for Reading tappet frames of course.

 

You best route is to look around the heritage/minor railways world to see if anybody happens to have anything tucked away.  If you care to send me a list I will sound out a couple of contacts who I know happen to have personal S&T stores of various items and components although I'm not sure if I can get a lever frame to match the spec you have given above., and the part Westinghouse L frame I know somebody has is already spoken for/required for spares but there might be a mechanical frame stashed somewhere?

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Thanks, Mike

 

Firstly, AFAIK they are not looking for lever-frames immediately, as they already have a motley assortment of bits of frame of the types listed. I just mentioned frames in case some asked "what sort of frames do you want locks for?". It would be nice to use a consistent type of frame everywhere for commonality of spares etc, but frankly these days one has to be grateful for what one can get! If a lock becomes available, I'm sure it can be made to fit whatever....

 

Secondly, there is an intention to produce a 'shopping list' in due course, so certainly I will send on a copy as and when it becomes available - thanks.

 

Thirdly, a number of people have already been making enquiries at various heritage railway sites, with little or no luck so far, but I'm just working on the basis that the more of us ask more questions in more places, then eventually something might come to light.

 

Actually, I can think of one place where an 'L' frame and motor-worked equipment might be 'nice', but 'authenticity' ranks high in North Devon :-)

 

 

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S&T is nice to have, but in my experience, once you install it, and it's passed by HMRI, it has to be kept in the condition upon that when it passed into service, and, more importantly, you need trained & dedicated staff to operate it. Even in the simplest situations, one 'clever Dickie' put the lever back under the train, because (in his opinion) 'it was ok'. 

 

My honest appraisal is to keep it simple, keep it enjoyable, keep it safe.

 

Best wishes,

 

Ian. 

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Chris

I feel your setting yourself up for a hard task if you go down the route of using ground frames to which you want to fit lever locks and circuit controllers. The space requirement is I think going to defeat you. Basically the choice likely available is either Westinghouse D series or SGE, both of which are large and whilst having the capacity for a circuit controller, aren't designed for external use. The other option is baby locks to which you would also need other circuit controllers. It's an awful lot to cram onto the back of a GF and Stevens knee frames were designed before electrickery anyway. I don't say it can't be done, but I wouldn't start from here.

 

Ian

S&T is no different from any other part of the many systems that make up an operating railway, they all have to be maintained to a standard. I'm all in favour of simple and safe, and  S&T installations on heritage railways are, by virtue of the equipment  being a known and  proven entity, and the installation being designed to well documented principles and standards. The HMRI have no inspection per se these days anyway, it's done by Independent Competent Persons who are engaged as part of the design process, nor is it technically difficult, so absolutely no reason to shy away from it if that is the railways choice. Of course not having any signalling is also a wholly valid choice but it does bring its own limitations.

 

Regards

Martin

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I would quite agree with the sentiments of your first paragraph. I have seen photos of Stevens knee frames with electrical stuff tacked on the back, but it does need space. The problem with the L&BR is that the surviving original ground-level SB 'huts' were barely big enough for their original 7-lever frames, we've just managed to squeeze in 9 levers at Woody Bay. We will have to work within the constraints of what we have inherited. There are 'possibilities' about work-arounds, but it's all 'early days'....

 

The new SB at Blackmoor will be different, in that the current 'working assumption' is to build a new SB (the old one vanished decades ago) to an authentic L&BR style, but sized to meet the larger frame requirements that will be inevitable for its future role. OK, we could probably squeeze a mini-panel into a Woody Bay-style hut and work it all by motors, but the howls of protest from the membership would probably be heard in Penzance!

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I suggest you try the Heritage Railway Association, i understand they have a newsletter with a section for wants.

 

You could also try Nick Wellington, he's the S&T bod on the KESR. Tenterden Town Station. He may be able to help.

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15 hours ago, RailWest said:

I would quite agree with the sentiments of your first paragraph. I have seen photos of Stevens knee frames with electrical stuff tacked on the back, but it does need space. The problem with the L&BR is that the surviving original ground-level SB 'huts' were barely big enough for their original 7-lever frames, we've just managed to squeeze in 9 levers at Woody Bay. We will have to work within the constraints of what we have inherited. There are 'possibilities' about work-arounds, but it's all 'early days'....

 

The new SB at Blackmoor will be different, in that the current 'working assumption' is to build a new SB (the old one vanished decades ago) to an authentic L&BR style, but sized to meet the larger frame requirements that will be inevitable for its future role. OK, we could probably squeeze a mini-panel into a Woody Bay-style hut and work it all by motors, but the howls of protest from the membership would probably be heard in Penzance!

The miniature railway on which I work has a 16-lever Stevens knee frame, with both mechanical and electrical locking on it. If you want to examine it, I am sure that arrangements can be made if you would like to drop me a PM.

 

Jim 

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My advice is to cultivate contacts with Network Rail and museums such as NRM York, NR may donate, NRM may loan from their not-for-display archives.

How severe is your problem, let me tell you, 25 years ago I was on major renewals,  where we had to remove mechanical signalling such as ground frames, the mechanical locking dept would send out men to stand over the contractors to ensure correct and  careful dismantling of lever frames etc,  saving  for future use and replenishing  their dwindling stocks of useable spare parts,  without supervision the contractors would simply disc cut or break up with heavy hammers the coveted bits and pieces.

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54 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

The miniature railway on which I work has a 16-lever Stevens knee frame, with both mechanical and electrical locking on it. If you want to examine it, I am sure that arrangements can be made if you would like to drop me a PM.

 

Jim 

Indeed so.  But as noted above the electric locks and circuit controllers are at the back of the frame and take up a lot of space, as does the separate, adjacent to the 'box, relay room.

 

'Railwest' should note that one of my sources is outwith the heritage railway area of operations and organisation although the other is within it (and has little time for them).  There are also of course some useful contacts (sorry) in teh relevant part of the IRSE.  Incidentally new point machines, specially designed and suited for the sort of track gauge used by the L&B are also available via another source if you wish to go 'all modern'.

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