Rivet Transfers - What Size For 4mm Scale?

[2996 Victor]

Dear All,

 

I'm busy getting back into kit and scratch-building, particularly wagons. With particular regard to open wagons, I'm keen to "fit-out" their interiors with suitable representations on ironwork and bolt-heads.

 

Years ago when I was much younger and I could see things clearly up close, I used to cut tiny noggins of 10thou MicroRod and fix those with a drip of solvent to my scratchbuilds. Time hasn't been kind, and even with new specs my recent attempt to recreate those heady days was only partially successful.  My ability to discern noggins of 10thou of similar size is definitely diminished, added to which the kit whose interior I was attempting to detail (a CooperCraft GWR 4-plank open) turned out to be more susceptible to softening than the styrene I used to use for scratch projects, and the plank detail I scribed in has lost a lot of its definition. Not a great outcome - the finished wagon will need to be loaded!

 

In this case, rivet transfers would have been a good option and one I want to pursue for future builds. From what I understand, they're a bit fiddly but not to difficult to get positioned, and there is no potential for solvent damage to the model.

 

Yesterday, I ordered from Historex Agents a set of Archer Resin Fastener Heads, Set AR88014. These are all 8thou, which, given my previous use of 10thou, I thought that once painted they'd be fine. The sheet of transfers arrived today - excellent service! - but I have the feeling they are much too small for 4mm scale. Added to which they appear to be oblong rather than circular.

 

There are a number of mentions in various threads of Archer rivet transfers, so I was wanted to cavass opinion as to what size is most convincing.

 

Thoughts, please!

All the best,

 

Mark

[k22009]

Hi Mark

 

I've used rivets from HGW in the Czech republic they offer a very good service usually arrive within a few days https://hgwmodels.cz/en/30-172-scale. No association just a happy customer, bit cheaper than Archers they use paypal too.

 

The ones i use are from the 1/72 range which are 0.15mm diameter and at pitches of 0.6mm and 0.8mm. They also do ones which are from there 1/48 and 1/32 scales 0.25mm dia at various pitches.

 

Dave

[2996 Victor]

1 hour ago, k22009 said:

Hi Mark

 

I've used rivets from HGW in the Czech republic they offer a very good service usually arrive within a few days https://hgwmodels.cz/en/30-172-scale. No association just a happy customer, bit cheaper than Archers they use paypal too.

 

The ones i use are from the 1/72 range which are 0.15mm diameter and at pitches of 0.6mm and 0.8mm. They also do ones which are from there 1/48 and 1/32 scales 0.25mm dia at various pitches.

 

Dave

 

Hi Dave,

 

many thanks for your post - I've had a look round HGW's site and their rivets certainly look much "cleaner" than the Archer ones I've already got! I've ordered three sets to get a feel for the sizes, and including postage from the Czech Republic the costs is significantly less than the single Archer's sheet!!! I'm looking forward to giving them a try....

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

[Jon4470]

Hi Mark

 

I’ve used Archers rivet transfers - the sheet I used was AR88015 which has a selection of different sized rivets. I ordered them direct from Archers in the US.

The smallest ones on this sheet seemed to give the correct impression and spacing for the wagon that I was building at the time.

 

Jon

 

[2996 Victor]

14 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

Hi Mark

 

I’ve used Archers rivet transfers - the sheet I used was AR88015 which has a selection of different sized rivets. I ordered them direct from Archers in the US.

The smallest ones on this sheet seemed to give the correct impression and spacing for the wagon that I was building at the time.

 

Jon

 

 

Hi Jon,

 

many thanks for your post - that's a very fine-looking wagon (or should I say "car"?). The rivets do indeed look just the ticket and exactly what I'd be aiming for. What size were they? Those on the sheet I bought (AR88014) are 0.008"/0.20mm, although as I mentioned, on the sheet they look like they're elongated rather than circular.

 

I've also ordered some from HGW in the Czech Republic following Dave's suggestion, and I'll try out both in due course and compare the results.

 

With best regards,

 

Mark

[shipbadger]

I noticed the OP said bolt heads in reference to the inside of wagons.  Most would have been built with countersunk head nib bolts when new.  Think of a countersunk head screw with a plain head and a bump to stop it rotating.  The nuts are on the outside, no washers.  Sometimes a row of bolts will have a long metal strip referred to as a washer plate under the nuts.  This is used if the nut would otherwise tighten against the wood.  The heads of the bolts present a flush appearance if fitted correctly.

 

Countersunk head nib bolts are now very expensive so many wagons on heritage railways will have ordinary coach blots fitted to save costs.  I use a counterbore to inset the heads into the wood to try and preserve the flush appearance.

 

Short CSK head nib bolts are available incidentally in most agricultural merchants as they are used to fix plough shares to the body.

 

Tony Comber

[2996 Victor]

1 hour ago, shipbadger said:

I noticed the OP said bolt heads in reference to the inside of wagons.  Most would have been built with countersunk head nib bolts when new.  Think of a countersunk head screw with a plain head and a bump to stop it rotating.  The nuts are on the outside, no washers.  Sometimes a row of bolts will have a long metal strip referred to as a washer plate under the nuts.  This is used if the nut would otherwise tighten against the wood.  The heads of the bolts present a flush appearance if fitted correctly.

 

Countersunk head nib bolts are now very expensive so many wagons on heritage railways will have ordinary coach blots fitted to save costs.  I use a counterbore to inset the heads into the wood to try and preserve the flush appearance.

 

Short CSK head nib bolts are available incidentally in most agricultural merchants as they are used to fix plough shares to the body.

 

Tony Comber

 

Hi Tony,

 

many thanks for your input - that's very helpful.

 

There was a discussion recently on the subject of side knees and washer plates here https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/86132-niles-kitbuilding-bench-more-cambrian-stock/page/36/&tab=comments#comment-3634646 which starts on p.36 about 3/4 of the way down the page. Stephen (Compound2632) provided a very useful link to a GA drawing of a Midland 5-plank open, study of which shows that the internal bolt-heads are flush with the internal ironwork, which I think I commented on there.

 

However, the good old GWR, as always, seems to have done things differently! Instead of internal side knees, the supporting body ironwork is external. This photo:

http:// 

(which I've cropped significantly) seems to show that the heads of the internal fixings are rounded instead of flush and that there aren't washer plates - presumably there are individual washers, though! The rounded heads on both the inside and outside of the wagon is curious.

 

Although I've always assumed (dangerous, I know!) that the GWR bolted its wooden wagon bodies together are they, in fact, rivetted? The GWR was an early user of all-iron wagons and so would presumably have been experienced in using rivets in the construction of goods stock.

 

All the best,

 

Mark

 

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by 2996 Victor

[Compound2632]

Great Western wagons indecorously displayed their knees on account of the different form of construction called for as a result of using iron for the frames - that or sheer exhibitionism. Looking at your photo and others of Great Western open wagons of the late 19th/early 20th century, the fastenings on the corner plates do look smaller than those elsewhere. I need to borrow Atkins again! What I do know is that the corner plates on LNWR wagons were riveted not bolted.

[2996 Victor]

Hi Stephen,

 

I suspect it is sheer exhibitionism - after all, just showing an ankle would be severely frowned upon, let alone a knee! 

 

But seriously, in comparing the fastenings on GWR planked opens and their iron/steel ballast and loco coal wagons in photographs, they do appear to be the same form, i.e. a mushroom-headed rivet. I appreciate that its difficult to say with any certainty how true this is, but looking at how light falls on the fasteners' heads seems to indicate "roundness" rather than "hexagonalness". For instance:

 

http://

http://

 

Photos in the 1986 combined volume of Atkins also seem to show this "roundness". For example O4 Open A 75707 on page 46 and N27 83508 on page 52, while the ancient single-planker 5141 on page 53 displays its bolt-heads!

 

Annoyingly, I found a post-preservation shot of a GWR open whose door hinge straps had been bolted: it shows the distinct difference in form which I believe would have been apparent on the interior of the 4-plank open. Of course, I can't find it now.....

 

What fun it all is.....I'm off to make a cuppa!

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

Edited August 30, 2019 by 2996 Victor

[Compound2632]

Riveting stuff!

[Jon4470]

Mark

 

I’ve taken a photo so you can see the size of the rivets - the smaller ones are the ones that I used mainly. Hope this helps.

 

 

 

The wagon is a narrow gauge wagon  for the Harrogate Gas works- see here “posed” with a standard gauge wagon - both are the same scale.

 

 

 

Sorry the photos are incorrect orientation.....one day i’ll Get the hang of digital photos!

 

Jon