Pre-Grouping Wagon Loading

[Ruston]

Evening all,

 

I am starting this topic with a question which I hope the knowledgeable people here can answer but I'd like, if possible, for the topic to expand into other wagon types and loads so feel free to add information and questions in a similar vein...

 

FISH TRAFFIC IN OPEN WAGONS

 

I have started a scratchbuild of a Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway Dia, 16 2-plank 'Fruit' or half-box wagon, which is at a stage where I can finish it as such or change it to a fish wagon by packing out the buffers, adding screw couplings and Mansell wheels. f I do finish it as a fish wagon the question is how, exactly, was fish carried in open wagons? I've only ever seen works type photos of fish wagons and so, naturally, they are not loaded.

 

I'm guessing the fish was packed in ice but would it be in boxes?

Would the load be sheeted?

If it was sheeted then the sheet would presumably return in the empty wagon but what about the boxes (if there were any)? Would they return to the docks in the fish wagons, or in other working?  Or were they regarded in the way we now regard cardboard packaging and not returned at all?

[Western Star]

A starting point might be to study the photos of the Neyland fish dock where there is at least one photo of fish loaded into an open wagon, here is a link to the title:-

 

https://www.waterstones.com/book/neyland/richard-parker/9780954203535

 

[webbcompound]

Here is the harbour at Wick. Women cleaning the fish, which are then put in barrels.

Edited August 28, 2019 by webbcompound

[K14]

Boxes at Neyland c.1910, but zooming in, the chap in the centre has a barrel that looks to have a sackcloth cover & there's a sack of something on the nearest wagon.

 

https://www.steampicturelibrary.com/places/stations-halts-welsh-stations/neyland-fish-platform-c1910-698854.html

 

The overall colouring of the boxes compared against the obviously brand new "John Gibson" box suggests the empties probably came back.

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Fish were definitely transported in bags/sacks at some stage - I've read an old court case about a goods porter who was caught deliberately splitting the bags and nicking fish at one of the Leman Street Goods Depots that were used to serve the old Billingsgate Market. One thing that sticks in my mind is that all the weights in the case are given in stones, which was apparently the normal unit for wet fish.

[Compound2632]

There was some discussion of this on my wagon-building topic a while back - starting roundabout here. Hope it helps!

[Caley Jim]

My understanding is that in Victorian/Edwardian times most fish was transported in barrels, often salted.

 

Jim 

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Caley Jim said:

My understanding is that in Victorian/Edwardian times most fish was transported in barrels, often salted.

 

Jim 

 

Certain types of fish after processing, maybe - salted herring? In ice in boxes seems to be supported by the photographic record. But maybe only after refrigeration made ice plentifully available? Maybe those women at Wick date from before Wick had refrigeration.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Compound2632

[Dave John]

Light she was and like a fairy
And her shoes were number nine
Herring boxes, without topses
Sandals were for Clementine... 

 

But on a more serious note, Ruston brings up the point of wagon sheets . 

 

The CR had many open fish wagons , some 200 D15 wagons designated " For fish traffic by passenger trains" ( P 78 CR wagons, Mike Williams ) Dual braked for working south, oil boxes,  screw couplings. Clearly the wagon also has T cleats for roping either the load or a sheet. 

 

It was CR practice to run npcs at the head of the train before any carriages. Looking at the photo there are 3 eyelets fixed to the bottom of the top plank and a rope through them tied back at the centre cleats. The purpose of that rope is to connect the communication cord of the coaches through the npcs to the locomotive. If you put a wagon sheet over that and tie it down how it was arranged ?  The communication cord would be jammed and just wouldn't work. 

 

My guess is that fish in barrels or boxes with ice but not sheeted would be how it was done. But it is only a guess, I would love to see some photos. 

 

 

[Mikkel]

7 hours ago, K14 said:

 the empties probably came back.

 

GWR Milnes Daimler of 1904 with empty fish crates, in John Harrington's Flickr album:

 

DSCF0124 by John Harrington, on Flickr

 

 

[Mikkel]

More GWR, but perhaps also applicable to other companies:  In 'Great Western Docks & Marine', goods guru Tony Atkins says that at the end of the 19th century West Country fish traffic was carried in barrels or boxes, packed in salt or ice.  I assume cured fish would be in barrels, and (as mentioned earlier) ice best in boxes. The third photo on this page shows both barels and boxes in use at the Milford Haven fish market in 1910.

 

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Certain types of fish after processing, maybe - salted herring? In ice in boxes seems to be supported by the photographic record. But maybe only after refrigeration made ice plentifully available?

 

Another page about the Milford Fish Docks (a principal GWR fishing port), lists 1890 as the year of the first ice factory in that port: https://www.milfordfishdocks.com/about/history/

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Mikkel

[Marly51]

When I was checking out Highland Railway topics here on the Forum, I remembered this one about modelling Highland Railway open fish wagons where turf was used as packing and insulation. There are early photographs of Highland stations and goods yards with stacks of empty fish boxes.

 

Ben Alder who has modelled the Far North Line may also know more about the history of Highland fish trains?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mike morley]

In 'Behind the Steam', the autobiography of Bill Morgan who began as a cleaner at Neyland in 1916, he describes loading crates of mackerel at the fish dock and being paid a penny for every four crates loaded.  He thought it was a nice little earner until he discovered that each fish-packer was allocated their own wagon and that his was right down the far end of the fish dock.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

15 hours ago, Ruston said:

...what about the boxes (if there were any)? Would they return to the docks in the fish wagons, or in other working?  Or were they regarded in the way we now regard cardboard packaging and not returned at all?

On this subject more generally, my first experience of working life was as a Saturday/holiday boy in greengrocery, just early enough to see the tail end of 'traditional' packaging: wooden boxes, natural fibre sacks; before it was all swept away by cardboard and plastic replacements (which it must be said did a much better job of protection of contents).

 

The traditional packaging was returned, and carefully too, boxes stacked as neatly as when loaded, sacks folded and stacked: very much intended to go back in reuseable condition. Very early on I got a bollocking for walking my muddy hooves over a nut sack which was lying on the floor of the dock; I should have picked it up and folded it and placed it on the large sack pile. (The fact that I already had a hundredweight of red cabbages in another sack on my shoulder made no odds!)

[billbedford]

10 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Fish were definitely transported in bags/sacks at some stage - I've read an old court case about a goods porter who was caught deliberately splitting the bags and nicking fish at one of the Leman Street Goods Depots that were used to serve the old Billingsgate Market

 

 

Shellfish were carried in sacks. Any other sort wouldn't be worth selling as cat food by the time they got to the fish markets.

[wagonman]

9 hours ago, Dave John said:

 

 

My guess is that fish in barrels or boxes with ice but not sheeted would be how it was done. But it is only a guess, I would love to see some photos. 

 

 

 

My understanding is that that is how it was done on the GWR before they introduced the Bloaters. Some 6-wheeled Siphons were also ear marked for fish traffic – I have a photo somewhere of one such being loaded with...milk churns.

 

Herring seem always to have been sent in barrels, the 'last' being a normal measure of quantity, other fish in boxes. Both barrels and boxes were supposed to be returned – as are the modern plastic crates which litter the quayside...

 

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by wagonman
additional info

[Andy Hayter]

9 hours ago, Dave John said:

 

My guess is that fish in barrels or boxes with ice but not sheeted would be how it was done. But it is only a guess, I would love to see some photos. 

 

 

 

Fish in barrels were cured - usually salt only.  Never ice, you would have ended up with a lot of dead fish swimming in water on arrival.

 

Boxes however are not liquid tight (indeed usually had slotted bottoms to allow drainage) and fish in boxes was packed with ice.

[billbedford]

27 minutes ago, wagonman said:

Herring seem always to have been sent in barrels, the 'last' being a normal measure of quantity, other fish in boxes. 

 

4

 

Most herring were cured in barrels, and because the barrels were watertight they could be transported in ordinary wagons or vans. Some herring was sold fresh and was therefore shipped iced in boxes, similar white fish. A smaller amount of herring was shipped in out baskets by passenger train, almost always carried by fishwives, so that they could be hawked around local towns and villages.

[Ruston]

3 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

On this subject more generally, my first experience of working life was as a Saturday/holiday boy in greengrocery, just early enough to see the tail end of 'traditional' packaging: wooden boxes, natural fibre sacks; before it was all swept away by cardboard and plastic replacements (which it must be said did a much better job of protection of contents).

 

The traditional packaging was returned, and carefully too, boxes stacked as neatly as when loaded, sacks folded and stacked: very much intended to go back in reuseable condition. Very early on I got a bollocking for walking my muddy hooves over a nut sack which was lying on the floor of the dock; I should have picked it up and folded it and placed it on the large sack pile. (The fact that I already had a hundredweight of red cabbages in another sack on my shoulder made no odds!)

Thanks for all the replies, everyone. From the photographic evidence I will go for wooden boxes for fresh fish as I don't imagine that cured fish in barrels would require the same urgency or special wagons. Considering the above I guess the returning empties would look very much like the loaded wagons as far as modelling them goes.

 

[Schooner]

On 28/08/2019 at 18:42, webbcompound said:

Here is the harbour at Wick...

What a brilliant depiction of a herring fishery quayside When I first saw it I was going to write a cautionary note that the herring industry was not representative of the fishing industry in general, and was in many ways its own beast...but it's well established above that fresh fish boxed in ice* was the order of the day. Wooden tubs and wicker baskets for movement round the market and locally, barrels for salt fish (largely bound for Europe by sea, I believe), no idea about cured fish

 

11 hours ago, billbedford said:

...hawked around local towns and villages."

Ah, I was so sure you were going to use 'jowst'! A lovely (if archaic) word for selling fish in this manner which Google tells me doesn't exist, but which was certainly in use in the West Country at least.

 

What a great start, I think this is quickly going to become a favourite thread...

 

Cheers all,

 

Schooner

 

*For the next wagon load discussion, I'd love to learn about how the natural ice industry was supported by the railways...

[webbcompound]

Somewhere I have seen a photo (someone on here is bound to have it) of fish arriving in London in tanks of water the size of a rectangular tar tank which are hoisted by  cranes off the wagons onto drays for delivery (I presume) to Billingsgate.

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by webbcompound

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, webbcompound said:

Somewhere I have seen a photo (someone on here is bound to have it) of fish arriving in London in tanks of water the size of a rectangular tar tank which are hoisted by  cranes off the wagons onto drays for delivery (I presume) to Billingsgate.

 

 

The Midland had some fish rucks which each carried four tanks for live fish - D428, built 1886/7 - rather handsome passenger-rated vehicles. Indeed, I think all fish traffic, or at least all vehicles built for it, was passenger-rated.

[Schooner]

Perhaps this pic of a MR D428 (EDIT: the nearest wagon) from Compound2632's prior thread, linked above, noted as Grimsby c.1910:

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Schooner
Clarity

[Compound2632]

As Bill Bedford stated, the further one, though very similar, is MS&L / GC - not surprising given the location. Fish from Grimsby would join the Midland at Lincoln. At least some of the Midland fish tanks (not the trucks) were labelled "Return to Grimsby". Also, I'd misremembered - not four fish tank boxes but four tank compartments in one large wooden box - in crimson lake, lined out yellow.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Compound2632

[billbedford]

The photos of the fish tanks being (un) loaded was taken at Marylebone. the original was in the GC's "Per Rail" booklet.

 

GC fish trains from both Grimsby and Hull were remarshalled at Doncaster Marshgate, with trains going over Woodhead or down the London Branch. A few vans went via the GN joint line.