Pre-Grouping Wagon Loading

[Nearholmer]

True, true.

 

Probably taken when Sospan Fach briefly hit number one in October 1947.

 

 

[Paul Cram]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I thought 111.5 tons must be a typo! You mentioned the lack of weighbridge at Hawes but according to the plan in V.R. Anderson & G.K. Fox, Stations and structures of the Settle and Carlisle Railway (OPC, 1986), there was one for road vehicles at the entrance to the yard. Presumably the flags and roofing slabs were being carted in?

Undessed stone was carted to the station and then dressed on the long laoding dock prior to been loaded onto wagons.  I suppose the stone may have been weighed and then estimtes of wastage made. I was wondering if the stone was laid flat so as to ensure it remained below the top of the wagon. I know the nternal height was 1'9" but don't have any information as to the sizes of the dressed stone.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

True, true.

 

Probably taken when Sospan Fach briefly hit number one in October 1947.

 

 

The chap in the apron looks very pleased with his find, though it looks more LP sized. LPs weren't introduced until 1948, I read, so I think the Sospan Fach theory has to be discounted. Supporting this interpretation, I note the wagon appears to have BR markings. Slightly more seriously, that is a splendid example of early BR wagon livery - I don't think I've seen quite such a good view of a completely unpainted wagon.

[RLWP]

15 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

 

9 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

 

EDIT: Herewith a film of the horse drawn Nantlle Railway, carrying roofing slate, in action, which should give some idea of what the Caithness operation was like  https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-rails-to-talsarn-1962-online

 

 

Judging by the SG wagons, there's a good chance the photo and film were made on the same visit

 

Richard

[Fat Controller]

7 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The chap in the apron looks very pleased with his find, though it looks more LP sized. LPs weren't introduced until 1948, I read, so I think the Sospan Fach theory has to be discounted. Supporting this interpretation, I note the wagon appears to have BR markings. Slightly more seriously, that is a splendid example of early BR wagon livery - I don't think I've seen quite such a good view of a completely unpainted wagon.

Could have been 78s...

[Turin 60]

At a risk of diverting or hi-jacking this thread i'm curious about how such "soft" produce such as strawberries and watercress were moved, both were shipped in large amounts from Southern England. I'm going to guess at the use of some sort of wooden boxes perhaps, over to the forum.

 

John Bruce.

[Nearholmer]

We've had a specific thread about strawberry traffic, with photos and links to photos, last year at strawberry time, I think.

 

EDIT: Found it, actually within 'Castle Aching' here (scroll back up the thread a bit to get to the start of the strawberry ramble)

 

 

The brief answer is that at the dates in question they went in flat-bottomed baskets with quite tall handles, loaded onto flap-down shelves, and onto the floor, in fruit vans, and the baskets were returned in bunches, their handles all tied together, to the specific farmers from which they came.

 

Not sure what size baskets were used for watercress (will search around), but I'm pretty sure that similar applied.

Edited August 31, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Marly51]

On 30/08/2019 at 23:10, Marly51 said:

The only image I could find re Caithness quarry transportation is of a tramway only  (from the wonderful Johnston Collection of Photograhs curated by Wick Heritage.)

https://johnstoncollection.net/show_image.php?ind=JN25281B045

 

There is an old photo of loaded quarry wagons and trolleys at Ballachullish, similar to the one posted above by Nearholmer, but I don’t have a link for this one.

 

 

 

Tracked the Ballachullish photo down with help from another forum member. It was posted by Grantown East Cultural and Heritage Centre. http://www.grantowneast.com/

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Brilliant!

 

The little NG wagon is unusual in this application, in that it looks much more like a mine tub than a typical slate wagon.

[Marly51]

8 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Brilliant!

 

The little NG wagon is unusual in this application, in that it looks much more like a mine tub than a typical slate wagon.

 

This is all new to me, Nearholmer, but really enjoying reading everyone’s analysis of the different loads, wagons and loading techniques!

[Fat Controller]

9 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Brilliant!

 

The little NG wagon is unusual in this application, in that it looks much more like a mine tub than a typical slate wagon.

It could well have been bought off-the-shelf from Hudsons or Wards; even in the 1960s, the latter used to publish a catalogue that included sectional track, r-t-r wagons etc. Apart from mines and quarries, people like the Department of Ancient Monuments (Ministry of Works?) used them when restoring old castles.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Fat Controller
Added content

[Ben Alder]

15 hours ago, Turin 60 said:

At a risk of diverting or hi-jacking this thread i'm curious about how such "soft" produce such as strawberries and watercress were moved, both were shipped in large amounts from Southern England. I'm going to guess at the use of some sort of wooden boxes perhaps, over to the forum.

 

John Bruce.

There is  a thread on WT concerned with such matters.

https://www.westernthunder.co.uk/index.php?threads/the-strawberry-line-in-p4.7715/page-2

[Nearholmer]

Watercress:

 

All the info on the web is obscured by stuff about the “watercress line”, but This is a very good photo http://www.alresfordheritage.co.uk/alresford-photo-collection/watercress/d-031.html

 

It’s a bit foggy, but it seems to show somewhat larger baskets than for strawberries, with no handles, otherwise the rail forwarding is “as for strawberries”.

 

This one shows the baskets more clearly https://www.croxleygreenhistory.co.uk/watercress-growers.html#PhotoSwipe1567348359901

 

And, this operation seems to have used lidded baskets, small hampers, and allows me to sneak in another, truly wonderful, narrow gauge railway, which I believe is still used now - I saw it in action about 35 years ago. https://www.thewatercresscompany.com/history-of-watercress

 

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Nearholmer

[wagonman]

The Bath Stone wagons had sides about 11ins high on average and were mostly rated for 10 tons. The size of the stone lump was variable! Some stone was dressed on site – there were masons' sheds at both Box and Corsham – and delivered to site. I have a photo of some such being delivered to Sheringham goods yard during the construction of St Peters Church, but you'll have to buy the book to see it...

[Paul Cram]

Which book?

[Compound2632]

This one, I presume.

[Andy Hayter]

Maybe but Corsham for sure and I think also Box are both in Wiltshire.

 

[Compound2632]

Ah. Is Wilts in progress or did I dream that?

 

[Nearholmer]

Watercress does, yes. No good if not got to market quickly. :-)

[03060]

6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

This one, I presume.

 

The PO Wagons of Somerset has a good 'official' side on view of a Hard Stone Firms Ltd, Bath 3 plank 10t wagon on p.185 but the reference is for Edward Free of Hallatrow.

 

I loved the Corsham photo in the link that you provided as it also shows wagons from Kilmersdon Colliery and Camerton Collieries as well as the Midland wagons, etc. Might be a useful link if you could also post it in the S&DJR circa 1902 thread, please, Compound.

 

Regards

Ian.

[Martin S-C]

Super thread.

 

One of the traffics I have focused interest on in recent months is quicklime, so the lime product after burning at the kilns. My understanding is this was chemically quite vigorous and was carried in what I have heard termed "cottage top" wagons similar to the covered salt wagons. Given the apparent weathering of the few vehicles I have seen photographed it seems the quicklime was loaded in a slurry or powder form via the top hatches.

Does anyone have any further information?

[Nearholmer]

We've discussed this before somewhere, Castle Aching probably, and the use of covered wagons, such as that above, for the carriage of lime doesn't seem to have been anything like universal.

 

There are innumerable photos of lime kilns in SER, LCDR and LBSCR territory that show ordinary, high-ended, open wagons, with either sheet chains or sheet bars, being used to carry lime, the weatherproofing being nothing but a stout and well-roped tarpaulin. I've got an article about Burriton pits on the LSWR somewhere, and I think that shows the same.

 

Some of the photos show that the wagon sheets carried the limekiln owners branding, those for Pepper of Amberley being a pale colour, rather than the typical dark coloured of tarpaulin.

 

At least some of the time, the lime was in barrels, rather than loose. I think it might have depended upon whether it was for liming fields, done to break-up clay, and very necessary in The Weald and in the Vales of Kent and Sussex, where a bulk cargo was involved, and a bit of loss to damp probably tolerable, or for making mortar.

 

Incidentally, some lime used on fields is hydrated lime, some is simply crushed chalk/limestone, and some is actually quicklime, the latter being much faster acting, but nasty stuff to handle and spread, which opens-up questions about which form of lime was actually in some of these wagons. 

 

There's a really good photo of Betchworth Limeworks on the SER in 1900 in here http://www.sihg.org.uk/books/SurreyIndPast2.pdf The wagons are high-ended opens, but the sheets have been roped only over the lower part, leaving the "bedheads" uncovered, whereas some other photos show the sheets right up over the bedheads.

 

I wonder whether covered wagons were only used where the lime kiln owner paid to buy some of his own, and possibly not in the SE of England at all. Maybe "cottage tops" were a thing in horribly rainy places.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Caley Jim]

The CR had some 40 8T lime wagons (Dia 25) which were basically Dia 22 open wagons with peaked roofs.  They were for carrying quicklime in sacks, this being the basis of the disinfectant used in cattle wagons.  The limestone used as a flux in the iron and steel industry was carried in ordinary mineral wagons.

(Caledonian Railway Wagons and NPCS by Mike Williams; p161)

 

Jim

[Andy Hayter]

2 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

Super thread.

 

 Given the apparent weathering of the few vehicles I have seen photographed it seems the quicklime was loaded in a slurry or powder form via the top hatches.

Does anyone have any further information?

 

 

Not slurry Martin.  Add quick lime to water and you get a lot of heat (and I mean a great deal) and the quick lime converts to slaked lime.

[wagonman]

On 01/09/2019 at 22:40, Compound2632 said:

Ah. Is Wilts in progress or did I dream that?

 

 

More of a nightmare! The Wiltshire section is written, I'm now organising a whole load of Somerset material that has come in since 2014 which I hope to include as an addendum, and hunting around for more photos. Unlikely to be in print for a year or more.

Edited September 2, 2019 by wagonman