Pre-Grouping Wagon Loading

[Nearholmer]

Madeira brings up the question of wine by rail (well, by sea really, because I think that Madeira wine was developed specifically to travel well by sea).

 

The French had plenty of dedicated wine wagons, of course, but were there any in Britain?

 

Rail tankers of cheap plonk were imported from the 1930s onwards, for bottling in the UK; what went on pre-grouping?

 

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Dave John]

The Scottish companies had empty cask wagons for the whisky industry, but many of these casks had been previously used for wine. So some perhaps transported by cask ? 

 

I'd guess that more expensive wines would be crated as bottles and moved in a well locked van packed with straw for mechanical protection. 

[Compound2632]

Sherry in casks - the empty casks being an essential part of whisky making.

 

See Para. 26 here. "Owing to the very high value of this traffic, experienced men should be deputed to deal with it."

[jcm@gwr]

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Portugal? - Maderia is a banana-growing island.

 

No, it's Ireland!

[Compound2632]

This thread is going bananas. I had to do the research. You may have been confusing Ireland with Iceland? No doubt the curved fruit resonated with the equally mythical horns on viking helmets.

 

The erroneous idea that the Peak District was a banana producing area may have arisen due to this well-known posed photo of a train of banana vans at Hathersage on the Dore & Chinley line on 31 July 1911:

 

 

NRM DY 9588, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

[jcm@gwr]

54 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

No, it's Ireland!

 

The reason it's Ireland is because Fyffes have their head office there.

Also, I said nothing about growing them, but they import and export 

to and from there!

[Fat Controller]

8 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Madeira brings up the question of wine by rail (well, by sea really, because I think that Madeira wine was developed specifically to travel well by sea).

 

The French had plenty of dedicated wine wagons, of course, but were there any in Britain?

 

Rail tankers of cheap plonk were imported from the 1930s onwards, for bottling in the UK; what went on pre-grouping?

 

 

Wines in bulk were conveyed in casks, including such delights as 'Australian Ruby Port', and 'South African Burgundy'. I remember an aunt telling me about selling the former from the barrel pre-WW2. Non-Colonial wines of the cheaper sorts probably didn't enter commerce until the 50s; even in my student days (early-mid 1970s) the range was not huge. The more 'classy' wines would have been shipped in bottle, packed in wooden cases, much as they are today.

There wouldn't have been rail tankers of lesser wines, as the train ferries didn't start until after WW1.

[Compound2632]

The Derby Registers list some official photos taken at Burton in May 1919, illustrating the loading of eight butts of whisky in London & North Western wagon No. 44772 and casks of port wine in North British wagon No. 4477. Unfortunately these aren't available online, so we'll have to make do with this one illustrating the correct method of loading of casks (compare the BR instructions, section 7, noting that this applies to empty casks), in Hull & Barnsley wagon No. 2322, taken on 12 November 1920:

 

 

NRM DY 11707,  released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum. This is one of a sequence, the remainder (which are not online) illustrate further right and wrong methods of loading casks. The right methods use Midland and Great Northern wagons in addition to this Hull & Barnsley wagon. The wrong method photos use Great Western and London & North Western wagons - coincidence or a deliberate choice?

 

Here's another, and a rarity - I'm not aware of any other photo of a Rhondda & Swansea Bay Railway wagon. Loading of casks at Derby St Marys, 29 April 1920:

 

 

NRM DY 11406, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

If laying barrels sideways, this is how to do it, Derby St Marys, 10 March 1920, Midland wagon No. 10758, almost certainly D305 but could be D818:

 

 

NRM DY 11331, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

Thanks for that chaps.

 

Interesting that full casks were not to be sheeted, sheeting was banned, not merely optional, other than under exceptional circumstances.

 

The one reason that I can think of for this is that it would make it harder for anyone to tap the casks undetected.

 

There are some nice tin-printed vans around in coarse-scale 0, both pre-WW1 models and recent ones, with liveries based on pre-WW1 adverts for Australian wines, but I'm assuming that these are the product of the lithographer's imagination.

[Miss Prism]

Excellent pics. I don't have knowledge of the 'right' and 'wrong' methods, but the upright casks in the Rhondda & Swansea Bay wagon look a bit precarious. I guess they're ok up to 15mph though, which is probably as fast as they would go.

 

[Compound2632]

I note that DY 11331, third picture in my previous post, corresponds exactly to the BR instructions, Section 26, wines and spirits in casks and jars, ii, tuns and pipes:

 

"Medium sized wagons with full length dropsides to be used [...] (a) Full loads. Tuns and pipes are to be loaded on their bilges, lengthways along both sides of the wagon, each being well nested on a rope ring of suitable circumference and depth to prevent contact with the floor of the wagon...."

 

Another photo, in Midland Wagons*, shows a finished load of six large barrels, securely roped as described in the instructions.

 

*Vol. 1 Plate 76; credited to British Rail. I can't find a corresponding entry in the Derby Registers. 

 

Also, re. DY 11406, the R&SB wagon, see Section 26 A iii a. The casks are arranged so as not to fall over. Presumably they are yet to be roped, or have been unroped.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Compound2632

[webbcompound]

My guess is that the barrels in the RSB wagon are probably wedged with timber at the end with the horizontal barrels. Placing the final row of barrels lying down means that the necessary space for wedging is less than if they were standing. I would think these are empties and so they are not likely to move if they are wedged, so there is no requirement for ropes.

[wagonman]

5 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Wines in bulk were conveyed in casks, including such delights as 'Australian Ruby Port', and 'South African Burgundy'. I remember an aunt telling me about selling the former from the barrel pre-WW2. Non-Colonial wines of the cheaper sorts probably didn't enter commerce until the 50s; even in my student days (early-mid 1970s) the range was not huge. The more 'classy' wines would have been shipped in bottle, packed in wooden cases, much as they are today.

There wouldn't have been rail tankers of lesser wines, as the train ferries didn't start until after WW1.

 

Ah, the heyday of Nicolas vin (très) ordinaire – but a damn sight better than the dreaded 'British' wines like VP (vaguely poisonous?). 

[Compound2632]

I've been trying to work out the capacity of these barrels.

 

The H&B wagon No. 2322 is, according to Tatlow, a Chas Roberts wagon of 1893, 15'6" over headstocks, so 15'0" or 15'1" inside. The barrels are not all the same size, but taking the two on the top in the middle, length + max diameter is approx 5', in the ratio 3:2. So length is a bit under 3', say 2'8" allowing for inset end. Max diameter about 2', ends about 3/4 of that, so mean diameter 24" x 7/8 - 21", say 20" inside after allowing for the thickness of the staves. Converting to SI, volume is about pi x 0.8 x 0.25^2 = 0.16 m^3 = 160 litres, which makes it a tierce. But of course these may not be wine barrels. 

 

The barrels in the dropside wagons are oddly proportioned - about twice as long as their maximum diameter. If it's a D305, internal length is 14'0", so each barrel is around 4'6 long, 2'3" max diameter (which looks about right, the wagon sides are 21"). Allowing for the inset ends and same ratio of end diameter to middle, volume is about pi x 1.25 x 0.28^2 = 0.3 m^3 = 300 litres, near enough a puncheon.

[Tricky]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

I've been trying to work out the capacity of these barrels.

 

The H&B wagon No. 2322 is, according to Tatlow, a Chas Roberts wagon of 1893, 15'6" over headstocks, so 15'0" or 15'1" inside. The barrels are not all the same size, but taking the two on the top in the middle, length + max diameter is approx 5', in the ratio 3:2. So length is a bit under 3', say 2'8" allowing for inset end. Max diameter about 2', ends about 3/4 of that, so mean diameter 24" x 7/8 - 21", say 20" inside after allowing for the thickness of the staves. Converting to SI, volume is about pi x 0.8 x 0.25^2 = 0.16 m^3 = 160 litres, which makes it a tierce. But of course these may not be wine barrels. 

 

The barrels in the dropside wagons are oddly proportioned - about twice as long as their maximum diameter. If it's a D305, internal length is 14'0", so each barrel is around 4'6 long, 2'3" max diameter (which looks about right, the wagon sides are 21"). Allowing for the inset ends and same ratio of end diameter to middle, volume is about pi x 1.25 x 0.28^2 = 0.3 m^3 = 300 litres, near enough a puncheon.

That is interesting - I have long been on the search for linear (as opposed to capacity) dimensions for the various sizes of barrels in use but so far haven't found any info. I have thought about producing wooden turned barrels (for us 7mm boys) in the various sizes, so that one could move away from just having the ubiquitous Slater's plastic ones...!

[Compound2632]

Presumably someone knows the size of a standard Burton beer barrel, or can work it out from the dimensions of St Pancras station!

[Andy Hayter]

5 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Thanks for that chaps.

 

Interesting that full casks were not to be sheeted, sheeting was banned, not merely optional, other than under exceptional circumstances.

 

The one reason that I can think of for this is that it would make it harder for anyone to tap the casks undetected.

 

 

Another reason might be that under sheets, and in warm weather, the barrels would heat up as if in a greenhouse.  This would spoil a good wine and turn a reasonable wine somewhat towards Madera but without the careful controls for quality.

 

There might also be a possibility of previous cargo spills that had impregnated the wooden floor and maybe sides, might evaporate in heat and with nowhere to go under the sheets the vapours might impregnate the barrels, potentially spoiling the wine and making the barrel unfit for further use with drinking liquids.  

[Compound2632]

Presuming that wine would have been confined to the relatively small proportion of the population that could be considered upper middle class or otherwise elite, I was thinking that perhaps wine would be a small proportion of traffic conveyed in casks or barrels, until I saw the graph on p. 9 of this report. This shows per capita consumption, in terms of volume of alcohol so needs to be normalised to (a) population and (b) the alcohol content of wine, beer, etc. to get an idea of the physical volume of the traffic.

[John-Miles]

Lots of materials other than wine were conveyed in barrels. My paternal grandfather was a cooper and although he volunteered for service in WW1 he was rejected because he worked in a tannery making barrels. These were used for dog poo which was an essential material in the making of leather. Other uses were for carrying "lant" - human urine which was used in the making of blankets - I believe it helped to soften them. That's taken the discussions to a whole new level of Yuck.

[Compound2632]

@John-Miles: the key question is, were barrels for different uses of uniform sizes or did each use have its own standard? In cases of doubt, could one distinguish between a barrel of Burton ale and a barrel of urine by their external dimensions?

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

@John-MilesIn cases of doubt, could one distinguish between a barrel of Burton ale and a barrel of urine by their external dimensions?

One certainly wouldn't want to get them mixed up!    

 

Jim 

[DonB]

On 11/09/2019 at 15:38, Compound2632 said:

Presumably someone knows the size of a standard Burton beer barrel, or can work it out from the dimensions of St Pancras station!

 

Standard size for normal delivery to pubs was the "barrel" at 36 gallons, Smaller sizes were 4.5 gallons IIRC a "Pin", 9 gallons  a "Kilderkin" , 18 gallons each size had a name . There was also the "Hogshead" at 56(?)  gallons,  And the "Tun". Don't remember the missing !8 gallon name or content of the Tun, didn't have them in my Father's cellar. 

Precise Physical size , I haven't a clue, but I could still recognise each size 

Edited September 14, 2019 by DonB
see Nearholmer's post below for correction of 9 gallon and 18 gallon barrel names

[Mikkel]

19 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Danish butter (on the L&Y via Goole) in half-barrels. How does that work? Which half?

 

Margarine at Paddington, 1909 (cropped photo)

 

[Nearholmer]

A firkin is 9 gallons, and a kilderkin 18.

[Compound2632]

47 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

A firkin is 9 gallons, and a kilderkin 18.

 

Yes, but what are their linear dimensions?

 

54 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

Margarine at Paddington, 1909 (cropped photo)

 

 

Superb. Barrels, half barrels (per the Danish butter coming onto the L&Y at Goole) and boxes. Do the boxes contain wrapped block margarine, do we suppose?