Pre-Grouping Wagon Loading

[Compound2632]

... not directly rail-related (though that's an LMS dray) but just crying out for a working model!

[Nearholmer]

See if you can find a picture of the horse-spiral at Paddington GWR stables. The same only going uphill.

[Compound2632]

This one?

 

[Dave John]

Interesting picture Mikkel. 

 

I suppose it leads us back to the beginning with fish. Pickled herring, though its gone out of fashion a bit in the uk, all sorts of pickled seafood were much more common than they are now. In fact pickled all sorts of food. 

[Mikkel]

12 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

1900 eh? That 2-plank wagon... self-contained buffers, rather a deep curb rail. Compare the 2-plank wagon at the left here (at Huntley & Palmers factory, Reading, also said to be c. 1900). The Worcester wagon has G.W.R at the LH end, which we're told went out c. 1893 but looks quite fresh here. On both wagons the script To Carry 8 Tons is written on the top of the lower plank, above the number / G.W.R lettering. Around 4,900 2-plank wagons were built between 1871 and 1878, according to Atkins, it's not clear if conversions from broad gauge wagons are included in that. The one in the Reading photo, No. 25637, doesn't fit in any of the blocks of numbers recorded by Atkins. 

 

Now I'm off to look for photos of the Worcestershire Sauce manufactory in Midland Road.

 

Yes maybe a  bit before '1900' , if we are to stick with the 1893/1894 date for phasing out of left-hand GWR. When looking at photos from the 1890s I'm often surpirsed as how "modern" the clothing looks. I was intrigued to see a NG GW 2-planker, there aren't too many photos of those.

[Mikkel]

9 hours ago, Dave John said:

Interesting picture Mikkel. 

 

I suppose it leads us back to the beginning with fish. Pickled herring, though its gone out of fashion a bit in the uk, all sorts of pickled seafood were much more common than they are now. In fact pickled all sorts of food. 

 

I've had a look to see if I could find other rail-served vinegar factories, but haven't found any yet.

[Miss Prism]

15 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Around 4,900 2-plank wagons were built between 1871 and 1878, according to Atkins,

 

How long did those 2-plankers survive?

 

[Fat Controller]

3 hours ago, Mikkel said:

 

I've had a look to see if I could find other rail-served vinegar factories, but haven't found any yet.

I can think of one or two breweries who produced something akin to vinegar...

[Compound2632]

53 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

How long did those 2-plankers survive?

 

 

I don't have Atkins - I borrow it as required - but as Great Western enthusiasts are in the fortunate position of having more-or-less complete numbering details for the company's wagons, I should think there's a quite straightforward answer. Just look for new construction that takes the numbers of these wagons. I made myself a list up to c. 1905; the only overlap I can see is in the number range 29001-29056, originally 2-plank wagons built as part of os Lot 127, but with some numbers from 29004 upwards taken by O2s of Lots  496 and 509 built c. 1905-7. Atkins is frustratingly reticent about order or build dates for lots. It's curious that it's one of the later lots of 2-plank wagons that was first to be replaced but this does suggest a minimum life in traffic of around 30 years. There are at least a couple of 2-plank wagons visible in the well-known panoramic views of Kings Meadow and Vastern Road yards, Reading, c. 1905. 

 

Comparing the Midland, the D299 8 ton open wagons were built in their thousands from 1882 to 1901; there was then a 10-year pause before large-scale construction of 5-plank opens resumed, with the 10 ton D302 wagons from 1911, which seem to have taken old D299 numbers. That suggests a policy of renewal after 30 years, though no doubt messed up by the Great War. The LMS went on to build very large numbers of 5-plank opens to D1666/7 in 1923-30; that and the lack of photos in the 1936 livery style suggests to me that 19th century opens were more or less extinct from LMS stock by 1930. However my understanding is that on the post-grouping Great Western, many of the 24,000+ 4-plank  opens built 1887-1902 were refurbished - updated brakes and oil axleboxes? - continuing in service as O21 (IIRC).

 

Atkins et al wagon numbers up to c1905.pdf

Edited September 19, 2019 by Compound2632

[Nearholmer]

Loving the rococo(?) horse spiral, but I’m afraid the one at Padders is altogether more utilitarian, for working class ‘orsis.

 

Lots of pictures here https://hydeparknow.uk/2015/12/30/paddington-horse-stables/

[Miss Prism]

10 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Just look for new construction that takes the numbers of these wagons

I don't think the GWR re-used its wagon numbers, but maybe I've misunderstood your meaning.

 

A 30-year lifetime seems reasonable, and by 1871+30, lots of 3-, 4- and 5-plankers were around or being built. Pics of the 2-plankers do seem very rare post 1910,

 

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

I don't think the GWR re-used its wagon numbers, but maybe I've misunderstood your meaning.

 

 

Because it's not my period of interest, I've not looked at GW wagon numbering after c. 1905-7. The GW does seem to have had a slightly more organised approach to wagon numbering than most companies. By and large practice was to give a wagon built to renewal account the number of the wagon it nominally replaced, with wagons built to capital account taking the next available numbers at the end of the stock list; I had simply assumed that the GW would do likewise once wagons built in the 1860s - 1880s were being replaced. The GW wagon fleet never exceeded 88,000 [Tatlow, LNER Wagons Vol. 1] but looking at a list of preserved wagons I see many wagons built from 1913 onwards and especially opens from the 1930s with numbers above 90,000 up to the 140,000s. There's a similar issue with Midland wagons - the fleet never exceeded 124,000 but there are known examples numbered above this, up to 144,000.

 

20 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Loving the rococo(?) horse spiral, but I’m afraid the one at Padders is altogether more utilitarian, for working class ‘orsis.

 

Lots of pictures here https://hydeparknow.uk/2015/12/30/paddington-horse-stables/

 

The double helix staircase in my photo is at Chambord and was designed by Leonardo da Vinci. Not a spiral, but the best horse staircase I know is inside Prague Castle, leading up to the Vladislav Hall - built at the end of the 15th century, the hall was large enough for jousting, so access was needed for mounted knights in full armour.

[Martin S-C]

On 11/09/2019 at 09:08, Compound2632 said:

Here's another, and a rarity - I'm not aware of any other photo of a Rhondda & Swansea Bay Railway wagon. Loading of casks at Derby St Marys, 29 April 1920:

 

Going a little off-topic, does anyone know what the livery was for Rhondda & Swansea Bay Railway wagons?

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

Going a little off-topic, does anyone know what the livery was for Rhondda & Swansea Bay Railway wagons?

 

According to this source, which is apparently repeating Great Western Way, for the wagon in the photo, dark grey - similar to Great Western grey - with 6 in initials. Earlier, chocolate, then light grey.

[2996 Victor]

On 20/09/2019 at 15:19, Compound2632 said:

 

According to this source, which is apparently repeating Great Western Way, for the wagon in the photo, dark grey - similar to Great Western grey - with 6 in initials. Earlier, chocolate, then light grey.

 

Just to add my two penn'orth, according to the Welsh Railways Research Circle Data Sheet 2, which is concerned with kit-bashing other railways' wagons into Welsh prototypes, the livery of the R&SBR 3-plank open wagons described therein was Midland Red with black ironwork, lettering in plain white.

 

Incidentally, the Port Talbot Railway's wagons are described as "chocolate brown" with black ironwork.

 

My copy of Great Western Way has yet to be dispatched.....

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[corneliuslundie]

At the Grouping the GWR certainly reused numbers for absorbed wagons. Looking at my Cambrian list, on the first page there are renumberings to 8512, 13627 and 100688. As far as I can see vacant numbers were allocated in order of capacity and age for a particular type, but that may be a gross simplification. Details of RR and Barry wagon renumbering have been published in the two WRRC drawings books.

Jonathan

[wessy]

In July 1877 Mary Ann Croft was travelling south on the LNWR mainline from her home near Lancaster. She was with her husband and young son. Approaching Betley Road south of Crewe she changed places with her husband and shortly after was decapitated by a 22'4'' iron channel bar which had been dislodged in a wagon of a passing north bound goods train from Wednesbury. The subsequent enquiry noted that the two wagons of iron channel had been loaded at Wednesbury and the bars were in three layers with the ends of the bars extending over ends of the wagons alternately. They were not chained or roped. There was no suggestion that there was anything wrong with this practice, but rather that more care should have been taken to ensure that the load was packed in a way to prevent movement. 

 

Does anyone know when chaining and roping of loads became obligatory?

[Martin S-C]

Very soon after this accident I would hope!

[Compound2632]

13 hours ago, wessy said:

Does anyone know when chaining and roping of loads became obligatory?

 

I doubt it became obligatory but it was certainly the subject of instructions to staff. LNWR Wagons Vol. 1 reproduces as an appendix a LNWR document General Instruction and Diagrams relating to Standard Methods of Loading and Securing Long and Projecting Traffic (no date given). The contents are in all essentials the same as those given in the successor BR document, on the Barrowmore Model Railway Group website here.

[Martin S-C]

I posted this image on another thread but simply for the recording of baskets, barrels, hat boxes(?), etc, I thought it worth putting up here as well. All the wagons appear to be empties.

I have just noticed that the cattle wagon appears to have beasts still inside so this photo must have been taken within a very short time of the incident.

 

[Martin S-C]

I have posted this image from a Facebook group. Its a b/w original and is colourised by Colin Epton who retains the rights to it so please do not post elsewhere.

My interest is the van behind the Midland loco. Do not be fooled by the livery, that could well be incorrect. By the roof arc it looks to me like it could be a CCT or early motor car van. It might also be a theatrical scenery van. I have taken a stab at the writing and see "SURREY'S & WO_ _ _ _ _ 'S Ltd." By way of some crude on-screen measurements taking perspective into account I think there are 4 or 5 letters between the 'O' and the 'S' of the second word.

Anyone with any ideas here?

 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Martin S-C
guess at wagon name amended after richbrummitt's comment

[richbrummitt]

There's an apostrophe before the S at the end of the first word. I guess we're looking for two names e.g. STOREY'S & WO...S Ltd?

[Compound2632]

It looks very like a Midland CCT - of which there were four diagrams, giving all combinations of 20 ft and 25 ft length and standard and Metropolitan loading gauge - D402/3/6/7. The vertical boarding is characteristic; I suspect this is one of the standard height ones, since I can't see the top of the doors. A number of these were painted up to advertise the companies making regular use of them: in 1895 a pair were lettered for the Gloucester Wagon Co., on condition that the Goucester Co. gave the Midland as much of its traffic in road carriages as the Midland could handle but if not required by the Midland they could be used for general traffic. Lot 683 of 1907 was for a pair of 25 ft vehicles (D403 or D407), for the use of and lettered for the Wolseley Tool & Motor Co. of Birmingham (Lacy & Dow). There is photographic evidence for at least one lettered for McNaught & Co., Worcester & Broad St, Birmingham, probably 1909 or later (Summerson). The one in this photo is clearly a further unknown example. Is the location Nottingham? No. 1345 was a Mansfield engine. (The colorist has omitted the black shading to the numerals.) Why is there ALWAYS an engine in the way?

 

The well-known S.A. Fuller van of the S&DJR was in the same style but 27 ft long:

 

 

NRM DY 9127, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

The LNWR had a similar scheme, but its CCTs were rather different in appearance, having either carriage panelling or outside framing.

 

References:

R.E. Lacey and G. Dow, Midland Carriages Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1986).

S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 2 (Irwell Press 2007) p. 8.

See also Castle Aching topic here et seq. and here

[Martin S-C]

Thanks Stephen, the roof curvature certainly fits... or is very close. I presume then that the body should be red or brown, not green?

I'll advise the colourist of the need for shading on the loco numerals.

[Compound2632]

14 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

Thanks Stephen, the roof curvature certainly fits... or is very close. I presume then that the body should be red or brown, not green?

I'll advise the colourist of the need for shading on the loco numerals.

 

Absolutely no idea what the body colour is, from a b/w photo. That S.A. Fuller CCT is apparently known to be blue; @phil_sutters can probably tell us what the evidence is for that.

 

Is it possible to get hold of a copy of the b/w original and/or know its provenance and date? It looks as if it might be from a family album. The black shading of the numbers might well not be visible on the original, as most photographic emulsions were still insensitive to red at this time.

 

I've tried searching Grace's Guide for Storey or Surrey without finding any obvious match.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Compound2632