Pre-Grouping Wagon Loading

[RLWP]

1 hour ago, Schooner said:

*For the next wagon load discussion, I'd love to learn about how the natural ice industry was supported by the railways...

 

OFF-TOPIC. Well, sort of

 

Can I suggest the topic title of this thread be changed to 

 

Quote

Pre-Grouping Wagon Loading - Fish

 

That way, this thread covers fish, shellfish, bloaters, dabs, crabs and what have you. Then we can have other topics e.g.

 

Pre-Grouping Wagon Loading - Beer!

 

Richard

[Nearholmer]

GER also had "salt water tanks" for fish transport, as briefly mentioned here. https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/rolling-stock/misc-stock/fish-trucks

 

I'm sure I've also read of shellfish, oysters possibly, being transported in tanks of water by rail.

 

 

[Adam88]

We were all taught that: "it is better to be a dead mackerel on the North-Western than a first-class passenger on the London Brighton and South Coast..."

[billbedford]

3 hours ago, Schooner said:

*For the next wagon load discussion, I'd love to learn about how the natural ice industry was supported by the railways...

 

 

It wasn't. The railways didn't start using ice until the mechanical ice plant had been built at fishing ports. Even so, the amount of ice used by the railways must have been a small proportion of that used by the fishing fleets.

[Fat Controller]

8 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

GER also had "salt water tanks" for fish transport, as briefly mentioned here. https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/rolling-stock/misc-stock/fish-trucks

 

I'm sure I've also read of shellfish, oysters possibly, being transported in tanks of water by rail.

 

 

Presumably in connection with the Jewish population in East London. There were also 'live' fish vans that worked from Central Europe: this traffic lasted until WW2.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 

This is a good thought, have some categories.

11 hours ago, RLWP said:

 ...we can have other topics e.g.

 

Pre-Grouping Wagon Loading - Beer!

Others might be crated goods, sacked goods, barrels other than beer, larger ironwork, carboys

 

 

2 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Presumably in connection with the Jewish population in East London. There were also 'live' fish vans that worked from Central Europe: this traffic lasted until WW2.

Handled at the 'Fruit Bank' at Bishopsgate GER along with other continental traffic in interesting wagons - some with brakeman's cabins - bearing legends such as 'Italian Butter'. The NRM has a fine picture collection of Bishopsgate in the mid 1920s which is full of interest for this topic generally.

[Compound2632]

I'll draw attention again to the collection of official documents pertaining to all aspects of the handling of goods traffic on the Barrowmore Model Railway Group's website. Although of British Railways 1950s/early 60s provenance, where I've been able to compare them with pre-Grouping documents (e.g. the various appendicies in LNWR Wagons) there is little change. I think they can be regarded as a summary of best practice accumulated over more than a century of experience. 

 

Also, out on the road, many of these interesting loads would be hidden under wagon sheets - themselves a whole nother topic. If one is modelling a goods yard, especially a largish urban one, one is faced with a conundrum: open wagons displaying their contents shouldn't arrive or depart in that state. Does one resort to a series of dioramas depicting the railway staff loading and unloading static wagons? Or just run sheeted wagons in and out? A large warehouse would cover a multitude of sins but be less interesting visually and operationally.

 

Mineral traffic needs to be kept well out of the way in another topic - except on branch lines, it really ought not be mixed in with goods traffic!

Edited August 30, 2019 by Compound2632

[Ruston]

14 hours ago, RLWP said:

 

OFF-TOPIC. Well, sort of

 

Can I suggest the topic title of this thread be changed to 

 

 

That way, this thread covers fish, shellfish, bloaters, dabs, crabs and what have you. Then we can have other topics e.g.

 

Pre-Grouping Wagon Loading - Beer!

 

Richard

I don't want to change the title and narrow it down to fish. Although my initial question has been about fish, my intention was that anyone could ask questions of any load and so it would be a resource for all wagon loads that aren't obvious.

 

Speaking of which, another load about which I am interested is stone flags and any other architectural stone.

 

I have modeled a load of flags as I would imagine them to be carried but I have found no photographs, or any other information to corroborate this. I'm sure that they wouldn't have been laid flat as they would break quite easily and handling them would be difficult, so I have them leaned against the wagon ends, with strips of wood to not only cushion them from one another, but to assist in handling. I should really have put wood between each layer of flags.

I have been told, elsewhere, that the wagon ends would not be strong enough for the load to lean on but, obviously, it can't lean on the drop sides. Someone suggested that a triangular frame would be nailed to the floor of the wagon to take the weight off the wagon end but this is purely speculation.

 

Perhaps they would be stood more upright? What if there was only a part load? Would they be crated and the crates be craned off at a goods siding or depot? My model is actually overloaded as sand stone weighs 2 tons per square yard and although the load would be under the limit for a 10-ton wagon I think these may only be 8-ton wagons.

 

What's really needed is someone who can say, or show, exactly how these loads were carried.

[Compound2632]

That seems to be similar to the way slates seem to have been loaded - and they are just as dense. There's nothing on slates or flags in those BR documents (perhaps the traffic had been lost by the 50s) but there is this, from booklet 2: "Marble slabs, whether loose or in crates, should be placed lengthwise on edge down the side of the wagon; when loose, straw packing to be used."

 

In LMS Journal (or possibly Midland Record) there was a series of articles by someone who had worked on the Leicester-Burton line including Bardon Hill, where there was quarry traffic. I'm sure there were photos of wagons being loaded with flags or paving blocks. I'll have a hunt...

[Nearholmer]

I will check the GWR document, and a few narrow gauge railway books showing ‘wharves’ later, but someone (not me) might be able to discern the slate-loading convention being used below.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Nick Holliday]

9 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Presumably in connection with the Jewish population in East London. There were also 'live' fish vans that worked from Central Europe: this traffic lasted until WW2.

There was quite a trade in moving oysters, in barrels, I believe, between Whitstable and Hayling Island. Peter Paye, in his book on the Hayling Railway, describes oysters being sent from there to Whitstable, and this trade has been discussed within the Brighton Circle, but I can't locate the final answer, if there was one, but I seem to recall that the trade was, to an extent, two way. The oyster beds in Langstone harbour had been worked into exhaustion by 1868, and perhaps restocking was undertaken using young oysters from Whitstable, whose reputation was widely spread. Perhaps the traffic  was so that the Hayling oysters, previously known as Emsworth Oysters, could be sold under the Whitstable name, for a premium. Presumably they would then be sent to London, perhaps Billingsgate Market using that sobriquet. 

[billbedford]

17 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

GER also had "salt water tanks" for fish transport, as briefly mentioned here. https://www.gersociety.org.uk/index.php/rolling-stock/misc-stock/fish-trucks

I'm sure I've also read of shellfish, oysters possibly, being transported in tanks of water by rail.

1

 

9 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Presumably in connection with the Jewish population in East London. There were also 'live' fish vans that worked from Central Europe: this traffic lasted until WW2.

 

The saltwater tanks preceded the use of ice in boxes.  By about 1900 it is thought that the tanks were packed with ice around dead fish, rather than using water to carry live fish. This had probably as much to do with changing fishing methods as anything else.

 

The first cross channel train ferries were started during WW1 for military use. While commercial ferries waited till the inauguration of the Harwich to Zeebrugge route in 1924, so it was impossible for continental wagons to reach London before that date.

[Nearholmer]

Slates:

 

Just like BR, the GWR document seems silent on the topic. Probably those few places that needed to know had known since time immoral(!).

 

And, photos that show the interior of loaded SG wagons clearly are frustratingly difficult to find.

 

As I already knew before checking, the various NG slate wagons were always loaded with roofing slates on edge, either across the wagon in rows, or along the wagon in the case of the rarer very large slates, sometimes a mix of small across and large along in a single wagon. No wooden packers were used, the slates being loaded tightly, to prevent them smacking about.

 

My surmise would be that roofing slates would be loaded the same way in SG wagons, with timber packers only being resorted to to prevent movement in part-filled wagons.

 

EDIT: Just found this picture from Delabole, which hints at a different loading practice from that in Wales. I've never seen a picture of slate stacked like this before, and I've looked at a sadly huge number of slate-railway pictures http://www.delaboleslate.co.uk/roofing-slate-spec.asp

 

Slate slabs (billiard tables; urinal-backings; bench-tops for laboratories; electrical switchgear panels; etc) were loaded either flat or on-edge, according to dimensions, and in some, but not all, cases were separated by wooden packers, or even semi-crated. A finished, shaped and drilled slab  is a very valuable, and exceedingly delicate beast, it will crack under its own weight if not properly supported, and the edges are dead-easy to chip, so loading would have been done with great care, with plenty of packing if needed.

 

Once they became available, the SG wagons used were of the anti-shock type, with the body able to move longitudinally under spring and damper control.

 

Conventions with slabs of other types may have been slightly different, because some have a quite uneven face, which would tend to cause them to damage one another.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

In LMS Journal (or possibly Midland Record) there was a series of articles by someone who had worked on the Leicester-Burton line including Bardon Hill, where there was quarry traffic. I'm sure there were photos of wagons being loaded with flags or paving blocks. I'll have a hunt...

 

Bingo. E. Jarvis, Signalman in Midland Record No. 6 - the first in a series of the author's recollections of how the job was done, chiefly at boxes on the Leicester to Burton line, along with some history of each box and the associated sidings. Invaluable reading if you want to understand the manoeuvers involved in working a wayside siding or goods yard on a double track line, with the classic layout of trailing connections only to each running line. 

 

His first job as a signalman was at Cliff Hill Sidings, which had served the Cliff Hill Granite Co. from 1894. Initially a ballast quarry, it installed plant for the manufacture of paving slab from the fine waste from stone crushing in 1903. The firm acquired its own wagons for this traffic - there's an ex-works photo of a 5-plank 10 ton wagon, probably 16ft over headstocks, sporting a Chas Roberts builders plate. Another photo shows slabs being loaded into Midland D299 5-plank wagons. They've been moved from the paving slab plant (which was at the sidings) on a dolly on the 2ft gauge quarry railway - stacked on edge. It's not quite possible to see how the slabs are being packed in the wagons but looks like on edge. The slabs are being handled, on edge, by men with bits of rag wrapped around their hands as protection. I suspect this was intended as a publicity photo: it has been touched up to better define the edges of the slabs. Another photo shows stacks of slabs on rough ground - rows of stacks about 20 slabs high, sheeted over. 

[Paul Cram]

Coincidently I have been trying to find out how the stone from Hawes was loaded into 2 and 3 plank wagons.  Without knowing the sizes of the Flags and froofing stones it is difficult to know wheter they would have been loaded on edge or flat. I calculation I have catrried out suggest tghat the load needed to be below the top of the wagon sides as the volume of sandstone in the Midland 3 plank would weigh approx 11.5 tons resulting in the ovelaoding of the wagon. There wasn;t a weigh bridge facilty so some estimating must have been involved.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Paul Cram

[Compound2632]

@Paul Cram, not quite that bad! The diagram D305 for the Midland 3-plank dropside wagon gives a carrying capacity of 8 tons and volume of 180 cubic feet - approximately 8 metric tons and 5 cubic metres, so the maximum density of a full level load is 1.6 tons/cubic metre, or 1.6 g/cm^3. The density of sandstone is in the range 2.0 - 2.6 g/cm^3. So, half-full would be about the limit. The Bath stone quarries in the Corsham area had their own wagons; these were one or two plank wagons; photos show blocks of building stone loaded well above the level of the sides - example here. Limestone is a bit less dense than sandstone - around 1.7 - 2.2 g/cm^3.

 

Quarry sidings usually had weighbridges - for billing purposes as much as checking for excessive loads.

[Paul Cram]

Sorry that should be 11.5 tons, post above amended

[Marly51]

Talk of flagstones made me wonder about how Caithness Paving Slabs were transported from the quarries to the harbours, including Castlehill on the North Coast. Caithness Stone was shipped all over the world. According to: https://ssns.org.uk/resources/Documents/Books/Caithness_1982/07_Porter_Caithness_1982_pp_115-129.pdf there were trolley tracks laid from the quarries? Out of interest, I will see if any old photographs exist.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Marly51

[Compound2632]

35 minutes ago, Paul Cram said:

Sorry that should be 11.5 tons, post above amended

 

I thought 111.5 tons must be a typo! You mentioned the lack of weighbridge at Hawes but according to the plan in V.R. Anderson & G.K. Fox, Stations and structures of the Settle and Carlisle Railway (OPC, 1986), there was one for road vehicles at the entrance to the yard. Presumably the flags and roofing slabs were being carted in?

Edited August 30, 2019 by Compound2632

[Nearholmer]

Slate transhipment again, with a nice view of the wagons that the Cambrian used ...... all, frustratingly waiting to be loaded! https://www.aditnow.co.uk/SuperSize/Wharf-At-Minffordd_9120/

 

The same scene, in colour, in 1965 ...... you still can't see inside the wagons, though! https://plumbloco.smugmug.com/Trains/CambrianCoastLines/i-7MzLFp9/A

 

 

Another very good slate transhipment photo, with very small slates loaded across the NG wagon, in layers but can you see inside the SG one? Nope! 

 

Might these be writing slates going to be fitted with wooden frames, rather than roofing slates?

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Marly51]

The only image I could find re Caithness quarry transportation is of a tramway only  (from the wonderful Johnston Collection of Photograhs curated by Wick Heritage.)

https://johnstoncollection.net/show_image.php?ind=JN25281B045

 

There is an old photo of loaded quarry wagons and trolleys at Ballachullish, similar to the one posted above by Nearholmer, but I don’t have a link for this one.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by Marly51

[RLWP]

31 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

Another very good slate transhipment photo

 

 

One day, some decent photos of Deganwy with slate wagons, SG wagons and ships will appear

 

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=53.2919&lon=-3.8290&layers=6&b=1

 

I've been fascinated with this bit of L&NWR traffic for ages

 

Richard

[Nearholmer]

Marly

 

Very interesting photo (if you like quarry railways, probably not if you don't).

 

I'd be prepared to wager that track is SG, or close to it, rather than NG, and the smoothness of the "four foot" strongly suggests horse-haulage.

 

Apologies to the OP for taking things a bit OT.

 

Kevin

 

EDIT: Now, how about this?! A horse-drawn train, on said tramway! The wagons are fitted with frames to allow the on-edge slabs to be supported, just like their tiny brethren at slab quarries in Wales. https://www.flickr.com/photos/nationalmuseumsscotland/5903855369

 

EDIT: This gives the gauge as 4ft 7.5ins https://www.caithness.org/caithnessfieldclub/bulletins/1998/guage_of_slate_quarry_tracks.htm

 

EDIT: Herewith a film of the horse drawn Nantlle Railway, carrying roofing slate, in action, which should give some idea of what the Caithness operation was like  https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-rails-to-talsarn-1962-online

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Marly51]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Marly

 

Very interesting photo (if you like quarry railways, probably not if you don't).

 

I'd be prepared to wager that track is SG, or close to it, rather than NG, and the smoothness of the "four foot" strongly suggests horse-haulage.

 

Apologies to the OP for taking things a bit OT.

 

Kevin

 

EDIT: Now, how about this?! A horse-drawn train, on said tramway! The wagons are fitted with frames to allow the on-edge slabs to be supported, just like their tiny brethren at slab quarries in Wales. https://www.flickr.com/photos/nationalmuseumsscotland/5903855369

 

EDIT: This gives the gauge as 4ft 7.5ins https://www.caithness.org/caithnessfieldclub/bulletins/1998/guage_of_slate_quarry_tracks.htm

 

EDIT: Herewith a film of the horse drawn Nantlle Railway, carrying roofing slate, in action, which should give some idea of what the Caithness operation was like  https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/watch-rails-to-talsarn-1962-online

 

 

Thank you for this Nearholmer! There are also a couple of  photos from other Caithness quarries, with single horses (not heavy horses) and carts alongside the quarrymen. The Caithness slabs are huge - I can't imagine many being loaded onto a regular cart! Definitely worth more research!

 

Apologies to Ruston for digressing from the main topic of wagon loads! 

 

Marlyn

Edited August 31, 2019 by Marly51

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Might these be writing slates going to be fitted with wooden frames, rather than roofing slates?

 

 

Are you sure those are slates? From the poses and expressions of the men, I would assume they are wagon-loads of second-hand 45 rpm singles.