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New Heljan class 17 issues


Simon Moore
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I've just taken delivery of the latest Heljan class 17 & I'm a bit disappointed with it.

 

The headcode has a central bulb like something off an old triang model so it doesnt light up the whole headcode. The headcode its self is only numbered on one end with no additional transfers or paper inserts for the other end & the motor sound rough. It does run perfectly well but its noisy & for a £150 price tag it's a bit expensive for these problems.

 

Is my model a standard model or has Heljan quality control missed mine & it's a pup to send back?

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The headcode "letterbox lighting" issue applied to previous models too. I replaced the headcode illumination with Jason Edmonds' (Stickswipe on eBay) solution, which provides much better and more even lighting for the headcode boxes. I did dim it down a bit after taking this photo.

48652124461_0d3960d878_b.jpgHeljan Class 17 lights 1 by Jeffrey Lynn, on Flickr

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2 hours ago, Rhb Simon said:

...it's a pup to send back?

You wrote the answer. Some of what should be in the box is missing and it doesn't run to your satisfaction. I have three Heljan mechanisms in the closely related class 15 and 16 (same motor and generic driveline pattern) and all three were silent and smooth running out of the box and have remained so after several years service. Yours should run just as sweetly.

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2 hours ago, Rhb Simon said:

I've just taken delivery of the latest Heljan class 17 & I'm a bit disappointed with it.

 

The headcode has a central bulb like something off an old triang model so it doesnt light up the whole headcode. The headcode its self is only numbered on one end with no additional transfers or paper inserts for the other end & the motor sound rough. It does run perfectly well but its noisy & for a £150 price tag it's a bit expensive for these problems.

 

Is my model a standard model or has Heljan quality control missed mine & it's a pup to send back?

The motor will quieten down after a good period of running in - an hour at half speed in each direction.

 

The headcode lighting has been like that since the first issue, it is an LED, the opening for the light to shine through is narrow.  I opened this up to provide a wider aperture which dramatically helped.  Remember though that these lights were really hard to see on the prototype so shouldnt be bright.

 

I think they are being shipped without extra headcodes, sure I read that somewhere.  Why not place a wanted ad for spare headcodes?

 

If you paid £150, I'd send it back as you can get it for less than £120!

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That's quite a disappointing tale.

 

Ever since Heljan started doing diesels - the 47 around 20 years ago? - they've had sheets of headcodes in them. The marginal cost must be pennies, if that, so why they would discontinue the practice I can't imagine.

 

As far as the motor goes, it is common to the 15, 16, Gresley 02 and Beyer Garratt, albeit with different flywheel arrangements. The shortcomings of the earlier production motors are well publicised, but supposedly long sorted. The nine motors I've had dealings with, mainly early production in fact, have been silky smooth and quiet ( any problems being in the drive train), so as 34B-D says so should yours. By all means give it a running in session, but if you're still not happy don't hesitate to send it back.

 

My twenty odd Heljan locos I regard as the best of my collection in terms of running quality. Let's hope this isn't a portent for a new problem emerging with this latest batch of Claytons.

 

John.

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I spoke to the shop I purchased the model from & was told that the headcode is now how it is so the blind at the back has no numbers on & you dont get any transfers or cut out sheets in the box.

 

As for the motor I was told to open the body & move the motor a bit as the rubber cradle holding it moves sometimes & causes the noise. 

 

I will give it a go see if I get anywhere with it.

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If you've only just purchased the model, the shop shouldn't be making suggestions for you to fix it. They should be offering to have it returned either for replacement or for them to fix.

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1 hour ago, Rhb Simon said:

...As for the motor I was told to open the body & move the motor a bit as the rubber cradle holding it moves sometimes & causes the noise. 

 

I will give it a go see if I get anywhere with it.

Unless you have done it before or keen to learn how, I wouldn't. The motor is typically very tight in the rubber grips and unless you can clearly see an 'out of position' problem how will you know how to move it for improvement?

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13 hours ago, Ian J. said:

If you've only just purchased the model, the shop shouldn't be making suggestions for you to fix it. They should be offering to have it returned either for replacement or for them to fix.

  Or  a  refund!

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Sadly the latest batch of class 17s is a big let-down with old Heljan issues of poor quality control (bits missing), poor assembly (bits falling

off) and headcode lighting that is the worst I've seen in recent years. All the good work that the 07 did in terms of build quality being jeopardised. 

Don't think I'll be getting rid of my Bachmann 47s for the forthcoming Heljan one.

 

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39 minutes ago, WisTramwayMan said:

Sadly the latest batch of class 17s is a big let-down with old Heljan issues of poor quality control (bits missing), poor assembly (bits falling

off) and headcode lighting that is the worst I've seen in recent years. All the good work that the 07 did in terms of build quality being jeopardised. 

Don't think I'll be getting rid of my Bachmann 47s for the forthcoming Heljan one.

 

Actually I won't be getting rid of my original Heljan 47's for new ones!

 

As I said in an earlier post, IMHO when Heljan gets it right the results are outstanding, mechanisms second to none, excellent finishes and attention to detail. But in 2019 you can't expect customers to be prepared to fiddle around with new and quite expensive items, and expect them to be happy. People who are prepared to mess about and investigate problems seem to be a declining minority, and on the basis of needing to put in some work will seek out an ebay bargain, not a new item at top price.

 

John.

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9 hours ago, WisTramwayMan said:

Sadly the latest batch of class 17s is a big let-down with old Heljan issues of poor quality control (bits missing), poor assembly (bits falling

off) and headcode lighting that is the worst I've seen in recent years. All the good work that the 07 did in terms of build quality being jeopardised. 

Don't think I'll be getting rid of my Bachmann 47s for the forthcoming Heljan one.

 

I know of quite a few folk with models from the latest batch, none of them have any problems.  Nothing missing, nothing has fallen off, performance is as to be expected from Heljan.

 

The only let downs are the lack of headcodes (very easy to source and add - but I agree they should be included) and the headcode lighting, which is unchanged from the original batches.

 

What problems are you having with yours?

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  • 2 weeks later...

More snow flakes!

 

It is quite easy to scan one of the earlier Heljan headcode sheets and then print a new one.  This way you can keep the original in pristine condition and sell it as unused!

 

I have recently purchased two Class 17s - one brand new and one unused from years ago.  Both were very stiff runners but now after perhaps an hours continuous running they are quite speedy, smooth and quiet.

 

I did have an issue with one of the wheel sets on the latest model.  The wheel wasn't fully pressed home on the axle.  In fact it wouldn't press on and the wheel set was out of gauge and didn't run true.  An email to Howes produced a replacement - a far cheaper solution than sending it back to the retailer who in turn would have to return it to Oxford.

 

Time to get warmed up I think.

 

Cheers Ray

2019_0826Heljan_Clayton0002.JPG

2019_0826Heljan_Clayton0003.JPG

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  • 2 weeks later...

An update - I was so pleased with my new Class 17 that I invested in an unused model from the first batch.  It was slow and noisy and I was assured that it would improve if it was run in.  Sorry no - it just got slower and more noisy.  No getting away from the fact that it needed a new motor.

 

Two video clips as bought and running in, followed by two video clips with its new motor - all at the same controller setting.  Even with the cost of the new motor it was still good value.

 

 

Cheers Ray

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  • 3 weeks later...

Dear All,

Thanks for the feedback on the latest batch of Class 17s. I can confirm that no changes have been made from the several earlier production runs. Lighting, mechanism, motors etc are the same as before (although they are of course improved from the very first batch with the faulty chassis). 

The separate sheets of paper headcodes were indeed a feature of early Heljan locos, but haven't been included for many years after customer feedback told us that the majority of people would rather have them factory fitted. It was a case of responding to demand, rather than cutting back. 

In terms of quality control, we have had only a few returned with production faults, but we are keeping an eye on the situation to see if these are rogues or an indication of wider issues. The control samples I received were 100% OK. 

If you are unlucky enough to have a faulty model, the best course of action is to return it to where it was purchased for replacement or refund, rather than sending to Howes or attempting to make your own repairs (unless it is something very minor!)

 

Hope this Helps.

 

Kindest Regards

 

Ben

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  • 6 months later...

I’ve recently acquired a class 17 second hand. It’s a very slow and noisy runner. A bit like the video above. Have had it apart several times to try and loosen the gearing. Several threads including this one allude to the first batch having problematic chassis but do not state precisely what the problem was. Some have changed motors and improved them. I agree with all posts here all my other Heljan’s run like a dream. My question is – has anyone had the problem class 17 motor apart and deduced precisely what is the problem with it was? (I’m guessing Heljan have never commented anywhere but simply replaced them).

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19 minutes ago, M1AYM said:

I’ve recently acquired a class 17 second hand. It’s a very slow and noisy runner. ..... My question is – has anyone had the problem class 17 motor apart and deduced precisely what is the problem with it was? (I’m guessing Heljan have never commented anywhere but simply replaced them).

 

Hello M1AYM

 

I have not looked inside my 'duff' motor- that is in contrast to my Hornby Q6 which had a very strangely grooved commutator.  My understanding is that the first models needed new motors. Up until the beginning of this year spare parts were stocked by Howes.  As of now Gaugemaster are Heljan's UK agents.  I have had a quick look at Gaugemaster's web site and there seems to me to be a lot of work needed to get it up to the same level of usefullness as Howe's site and the prices have jumped.

 

I bought one of Howe's last spare motors for my Class 17.  SImilar motors are used in other models but with different flywheels.  Have you spoken to Gaugemaster or even direct to Heljan?

 

Regards  Ray

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Thanks Ray – I want expecting any kind of reply so soon, so I appreciate it No I’ve not spoken to Heljan yet but I need to I guess. Hopefully they will understand be able to confirm the issue and don’t pass me off to Guagemaster. I’m not expecting any sort of guarantee, I just want to make sure that’s the fault before I invest. I was aware Gaugemaster have taken over the spares and it doesn’t surprise me the price will have risen as well of course. Technically, unlike the olden days these motors are not brush replaceable but I was going to go inside mine and have a look. I’d rather get another motor first though. There are some motors for class 17s on ebay of course but its questionable as to having the same problem again. All understood with differing flywheel size as well and I really don’t fancy trying to get the flywheels on and off the shafts either. Sounds like your Q6 motor has a similar issue and I guess that if the commutator is off centre or isn’t round then that’s where the vibration starts but I have to say my class 17 is slow as well so if it is the motor, it could be a magnetic or a coil issue or a dead pole even (presumably they have?). Design or Manufacture ?- I guess only Heljan will know the answer and may be reluctant to disclose.

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One of our members here in Australia had one of those first release models with the duff motors ... or were they duff? He found there was a simple assembly error with the bearings in the tops of the gear towers, where they had not been seated properly (there are flats on the bearings to correspond with the sockets they sit in), causing the whole shaft to be too tight, and overloading the motors. Heljan's solution was to offer complete exchange chassis, again suggesting it wasn't really the motor at fault, but the driveline - simply offering replacement motors for customers to fit would not have fixed the problem.

My friend dismantled the bogies, reseated the bearings properly and had no further problems with the model.

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4 hours ago, SRman said:

My friend dismantled the bogies, reseated the bearings properly and had no further problems with the model.

 

Seconded, I did this to two or three models and they then ran fine.  A more powerful motor may mask this problem but I don't think it would solve it.

 

Best wishes

 

Roddy

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1 hour ago, Roddy Angus said:

 

Seconded, I did this to two or three models and they then ran fine.  A more powerful motor may mask this problem but I don't think it would solve it.

 

Best wishes

 

Roddy


Likewise, my three early 17s all run fine after sorting the bogies. Only 17 I ever changed the motor on resulted from my error and snapping off one of the power tags. 
 

Roy

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Headcodes can be sorted with some from Precision labels. And agree with the comments re the illumination - as supplied its not the best but if it offends theres a solution above.

 

Beware if taking the body off if the latest iterations have the same overcomplicated sprung buffer fixings as the early ones Once removed they are almost guaranteed to be lost when you try and replace them. Doing away with them doesnt cause any issues - the body will then be retained by the 4 clips in the same way as all other Heljan lcoos and this is more than adequate - just trim the buffer shanks down and glue them in place

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, M1AYM said:

......There are some motors for class 17s on ebay of course but its questionable as to having the same problem again. All understood with differing flywheel size as well and I really don’t fancy trying to get the flywheels on and off the shafts either. ..

 

Hello again M1AYM

 

I had forgotten about the worm drive issues.  That was not the case with my model - I do remember the Class 17 being one of the most difficult models that I have had to take apart.

 

I have looked out my old motor - it looks in beautiful condition!  When I rotate the shaft by hand there are distinct notches.  Peering in to the commutator I would say it was a three pole motor and that there are six 'notches'.  The motor shaft seems to be spring loaded.   If you press the shaft into the motor at the commutator end it pops back out again.  Also if you turn the motorshaft holding it pressed in the 'notches' disappear.

 

Yes I have had the Q6 motor apart and there was an eBay contact who was most helpful (‘Jack’ (jacclar_0) an aftermarket supplier on eBay).  He was going to look for a replacement motor for the Heljan but never came back to me.  There are more details on my Blog:

 

 

As you say the problem will be the flywheels and plastic connectors for the drive shafts.  I have attached some pictures to jog other peoples memories.  I don't think there is space between the motor can, and the flywheel for a conventional gear puller.   I removed the brass flywheels on my Q6 with heat (standing the motor on an Aga hot plate).  This is out of the question with the Hejan motor until the plastic drive shaft couplings are removed.  Heljan models seem to be a 'click fit' without any glue.  I am suspecting that the couplings must be pushed into  place.  That would be interesting to know and a question to ask Heljan / Gaugemaster.

 

49832302133_fd04f57867_5k.jpg

 

49832839181_c767be6dec_5k.jpg

 

49832301663_8662c2219c_5k.jpg

 

Let us know if you make any progress.

 

Regards

 

Ray

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Hi Ray,

 

The six notches might just something possibly a brush or brush holder catching on the six electrical bonds between the commutator and the armature coils (assuming it is a three pole motor). If so that probably shouldn't happen in a motor.

 

Take care.

 

Nick

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10 hours ago, SRman said:

One of our members here in Australia had one of those first release models with the duff motors ... or were they duff? He found there was a simple assembly error with the bearings in the tops of the gear towers, where they had not been seated properly (there are flats on the bearings to correspond with the sockets they sit in), causing the whole shaft to be too tight, and overloading the motors. Heljan's solution was to offer complete exchange chassis, again suggesting it wasn't really the motor at fault, but the driveline - simply offering replacement motors for customers to fit would not have fixed the problem.

My friend dismantled the bogies, reseated the bearings properly and had no further problems with the model.

 

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