New Heljan class 17 issues

[juke]

I've emailed Stickswipe, I'll get these as soon as I hear from him.

 

I've attached a pic of my current wiring attempt. I did find a few pics around the net but they didn't match what my

17 had, tried them anyway with partial success.

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by juke
Pic change

[juke]

Hope this is a better pic.

[joseph benjamin]

Having recently bought a pre owned Heljan class 17 which was reported to run slow, it was in limp mode and noisy so I followed the advice given here gave it a good check over and fitted a new motor, it was still in limp mode so I fitted a spare Mashima motor I had and it runs perfectly. The operation revealed Heljan's poor quality control and I now know why Heljan were selling spare power units for their Beyer Garret a problem I don't have with my 40 year old K's Garret. I was thinking of pre ordering their 10800, however in the light of my experience with the class 17 I will give it a miss. 

[John Tomlinson]

19 minutes ago, joseph benjamin said:

Having recently bought a pre owned Heljan class 17 which was reported to run slow, it was in limp mode and noisy so I followed the advice given here gave it a good check over and fitted a new motor, it was still in limp mode so I fitted a spare Mashima motor I had and it runs perfectly. The operation revealed Heljan's poor quality control and I now know why Heljan were selling spare power units for their Beyer Garret a problem I don't have with my 40 year old K's Garret. I was thinking of pre ordering their 10800, however in the light of my experience with the class 17 I will give it a miss. 

 

Could you perhaps tell us which size of Mashima you used?

 

Many thanks,

 

John.

[joseph benjamin]

It's a 1424 John. I've just refitted the buffers and see that their retaining collars are a sliding fit on the shanks so I presume Heljan used super glue to stop the spring pushing them off as I did. If you loose a spring they are the same size as the Kadee coupling spring of which I have hundreds. overall I'm not impressed by Heljan.

[M1AYM]

On 28/03/2023 at 11:00, joseph benjamin said:

Having recently bought a pre owned Heljan class 17 which was reported to run slow, it was in limp mode and noisy so I followed the advice given here gave it a good check over and fitted a new motor, it was still in limp mode so I fitted a spare Mashima motor I had and it runs perfectly. The operation revealed Heljan's poor quality control and I now know why Heljan were selling spare power units for their Beyer Garret a problem I don't have with my 40 year old K's Garret. I was thinking of pre ordering their 10800, however in the light of my experience with the class 17 I will give it a miss. 

Ive since had trouble with a class 16 motor also. They’re different part numbers but essentially the same size with shorter shafts. I tried removing the motor casing- impossible, as you cant get under the tabs to bend them. In a effort to get to the bottom of what was wrong i spun the old class 17 motor id replaced in my lathe and split the casing . I expected to find a dead pole on the armature but it was ok. Not much brush wear either , although the commutator did not look very circular , so may have some flat spots. Although there were some metal filings inside indicating signs of rubbing which could have been me opening the case on the lathe, I still suspect the rattling noise is caused by  the armature hitting the stator magnets due to small manufacturing tolerances. Either way if youve had success from an alternative manufacturer, Im sure there are many who would appreciate knowing where to get them. Its a shame such good models are let down by bad unserviceable motors these days. For what its worth if you want to know what a smooth motor feels like - try the Hornby class 73!

[John Tomlinson]

On 29/03/2023 at 08:29, joseph benjamin said:

It's a 1424 John. I've just refitted the buffers and see that their retaining collars are a sliding fit on the shanks so I presume Heljan used super glue to stop the spring pushing them off as I did. If you loose a spring they are the same size as the Kadee coupling spring of which I have hundreds. overall I'm not impressed by Heljan.

 

Thanks for this.

 

In respect of the buffers, I don't think Heljan used any glue on the sleeves at all, which is why so many secondhand examples have buffers missing. Those sleeves are a pain to find as well if they ping off into the carpet! The problem is that the chassis as supplied won't fit to the body with the buffers and sleeves in place. One trick I learnt on here was to file small recesses into the chassis corners that allow the buffers to stay in place whilst the body is removed.

 

Interesting comment from M1AYM above about the motors being poorly made so that at speed the armature hits the magnets making a noise. Rather agree with you "I'm not overly impressed by Heljan"!!

 

John.

[sjp23480]

I recently purchased Heljan's D8600 - rather dismayed to hear of other's trials and tribulations with this particular model.

 

I am keen to take preventative steps described by may posters above to extend the longevity of the motor.

 

Having taken the body off I am now rather nervous about going any further dismantling, as it all looks a bit tricky.

 

With regard to to lubricating the gear box towers and adjusting the thrust washer - would anyone have any pictures illustrating the dismantling and the specific components that need to be tweaked?

 

I appreciate the earlier descriptions of the process, but a picture paints a thousand words.

Many thanks

Steve

[M1AYM]

Steve,

just wanted to say the issues Ive had are with purchases of second hand locos in otherwise relatively good condition. I think in both cases they have left factory with poor quality motors to start with rather than being run dry or high friction . Ive several other Heljan engines that are great runners. It feels like luck of the draw with the smaller motors. I would take Heljans advice from there service instructions if you really want to add lubrication otherwise should be good for years if smooth running anyway…. 

[sjp23480]

@M1AYM thanks for the steer.  

 

I have two Claytons, one seems fine and up to Heljan's normal quality whilst the other has a bit more noise from one of the gear towers than I would like.  Haven't yet had the courage to take it apart in the hope that someone might have a couple of pictures to post to help me figure it out! 

[Halvarras]

On 31/03/2023 at 11:51, John Tomlinson said:

 

In respect of the buffers, I don't think Heljan used any glue on the sleeves at all, which is why so many secondhand examples have buffers missing. Those sleeves are a pain to find as well if they ping off into the carpet! The problem is that the chassis as supplied won't fit to the body with the buffers and sleeves in place. One trick I learnt on here was to file small recesses into the chassis corners that allow the buffers to stay in place whilst the body is removed.

 

I have one Clayton, blue D8507, which runs OK - its buffers, springs and sleeves are in a zip bag waiting for me to getting around to looking into filing the small recesses you refer to - but one has to wonder whether Heljan overlooked providing these recesses to clear the buffers in the first place, this poor design condemning owners to carpet searches with a torch and magnifying glass........thanks a bunch Heljan!

[sjp23480]

1 hour ago, Halvarras said:

 

I have one Clayton, blue D8507, which runs OK - its buffers, springs and sleeves are in a zip bag waiting for me to getting around to looking into filing the small recesses you refer to - but one has to wonder whether Heljan overlooked providing these recesses to clear the buffers in the first place, this poor design condemning owners to carpet searches with a torch and magnifying glass........thanks a bunch Heljan!

I agree, it feels a bit belt and braces given the body is such a secure clip fit to the body.  To use the buffers are retainers is wholly unnecessary.  

 

Also the need set up with the headcode lighting panel is such a faff - the wiring feels very vulnerable and having to unclip/clip the panels in whilst the body/chassis are detached is a bit nerve wracking.  They must be a nightmare for the factory to assemble?

[Darius43]

Just finished successfully installing a sound decoder into a Heljan Class 17.  No easy task dues to the idiot at Heljan who came up with the buffer removal concept to get the bodyshell off.  I can understand why the dcc fitting guides tell you to do this with the model in a plastic bag.

 

Got the decoder fitted and tested the loco on the program track - sound but no motion.  The reason for this is that the black motor wire had snapped off at the motor end - in fact the solder tab to the motor had snapped off.  Got the wire re-soldered to the motor but this necessitated the partial removal of the pcb to enable the motor saddle clamp to be removed to enable the motor to be moved out so that I could solder the end of the wire to the small bit of solder tag that was still visible.  
 

I now had to re-engage the motor with the bogie dogbones, re attach the saddle clamp and re-tape the pcb down.  Re-plugged the chip and the loco moves - hurrah.  Speaker is a bit crackly though, mainly because space is so limited that I can’t put the ESU speaker box over it.  Solution was a thin piece of card between the speaker face and the cab inside face which stops the speaker from rattling around and acts as a sort of speaker box.

 

I trimmed the buffer shanks and glued them back in so that body removal no longer needs the buffers to be removed.  
 

I now have a working, sound-equipped Class 17 but am in need of a stiff drink and meditation.  To quote Dustin Hoffman in Tootsie, I would dearly like to zap the Heljan designer responsible for this loco in the badoobies with a cattle prod - multiple times…

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[Phil Bullock]

26 minutes ago, Darius43 said:

Just finished successfully installing a sound decoder into a Heljan Class 17.  No easy task dues to the idiot at Heljan who came up with the buffer removal concept to get the bodyshell off.  I can understand why the dcc fitting guides tell you to do this with the model in a plastic bag.

 

Got the decoder fitted and tested the loco on the program track - sound but no motion.  The reason for this is that the black motor wire had snapped off at the motor end - in fact the solder tab to the motor had snapped off.  Got the wire re-soldered to the motor but this necessitated the partial removal of the pcb to enable the motor saddle clamp to be removed to enable the motor to be moved out so that I could solder the end of the wire to the small bit of solder tag that was still visible.  
 

I now had to re-engage the motor with the bogie dogbones, re attach the saddle clamp and re-tape the pcb down.  Re-plugged the chip and the loco moves - hurrah.  Speaker is a bit crackly though, mainly because space is so limited that I can’t put the ESU speaker box over it.  Solution was a thin piece of card between the speaker face and the cab inside face which stops the speaker from rattling around and acts as a sort of speaker box.

 

I trimmed the buffer shanks and glued them back in so that body removal no longer needs the buffers to be removed.  
 

I now have a working, sound-equipped Class 17 but am in need of a stiff drink and meditation.  To quote Dustin Hoffman in Tootsie, I would dearly like to zap the Heljan designer responsible for this loco in the badoobies with a cattle prod - multiple times…

 

Cheers

 

Darius

Have done two of them! That’s enough….

[Roy Langridge]

1 hour ago, Darius43 said:

Just finished successfully installing a sound decoder into a Heljan Class 17.  No easy task dues to the idiot at Heljan who came up with the buffer removal concept to get the bodyshell off.  I can understand why the dcc fitting guides tell you to do this with the model in a plastic bag.

 

Got the decoder fitted and tested the loco on the program track - sound but no motion.  The reason for this is that the black motor wire had snapped off at the motor end - in fact the solder tab to the motor had snapped off.  Got the wire re-soldered to the motor but this necessitated the partial removal of the pcb to enable the motor saddle clamp to be removed to enable the motor to be moved out so that I could solder the end of the wire to the small bit of solder tag that was still visible.  
 

I now had to re-engage the motor with the bogie dogbones, re attach the saddle clamp and re-tape the pcb down.  Re-plugged the chip and the loco moves - hurrah.  Speaker is a bit crackly though, mainly because space is so limited that I can’t put the ESU speaker box over it.  Solution was a thin piece of card between the speaker face and the cab inside face which stops the speaker from rattling around and acts as a sort of speaker box.

 

I trimmed the buffer shanks and glued them back in so that body removal no longer needs the buffers to be removed.  
 

I now have a working, sound-equipped Class 17 but am in need of a stiff drink and meditation.  To quote Dustin Hoffman in Tootsie, I would dearly like to zap the Heljan designer responsible for this loco in the badoobies with a cattle prod - multiple times…

 

Cheers

 

Darius

If it helps at all, I have fitted a pair of YouChoos speakers in mine, one in each nose. 
 

Roy

[Halvarras]

1 hour ago, Roy Langridge said:

If it helps at all, I have fitted a pair of YouChoos speakers in mine, one in each nose. 
 

Roy

 

Where the engines are - perfick! 👍