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New Heljan class 17 issues


Simon Moore
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5 hours ago, Roddy Angus said:

 

Seconded, I did this to two or three models and they then ran fine.  A more powerful motor may mask this problem but I don't think it would solve it.

 

Best wishes

 

Roddy

Many thanks for this - much appreciated - I will open her up again ...

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5 hours ago, Roddy Angus said:

 

Seconded, I did this to two or three models and they then ran fine.  A more powerful motor may mask this problem but I don't think it would solve it.

 

Best wishes

 

Roddy

Cheers Roddy

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4 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:


Likewise, my three early 17s all run fine after sorting the bogies. Only 17 I ever changed the motor on resulted from my error and snapping off one of the power tags. 
 

Roy

Thanks for that Roy

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4 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

Headcodes can be sorted with some from Precision labels. And agree with the comments re the illumination - as supplied its not the best but if it offends theres a solution above.

 

Beware if taking the body off if the latest iterations have the same overcomplicated sprung buffer fixings as the early ones Once removed they are almost guaranteed to be lost when you try and replace them. Doing away with them doesnt cause any issues - the body will then be retained by the 4 clips in the same way as all other Heljan lcoos and this is more than adequate - just trim the buffer shanks down and glue them in place

 

 

 

 

 I didnt see the headcodes as a big issue but have to agree on the buffers. What a fiddly job. Mine was second hand anyway and already had one or two springs missing but I did the same as you in the end, just did away with the springs and collars, shortened the shanks with the flush cutters and glued in place. Its still a good looking model...

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2 hours ago, Silver Sidelines said:

 

Hello again M1AYM

 

I had forgotten about the worm drive issues.  That was not the case with my model - I do remember the Class 17 being one of the most difficult models that I have had to take apart.

 

I have looked out my old motor - it looks in beautiful condition!  When I rotate the shaft by hand there are distinct notches.  Peering in to the commutator I would say it was a three pole motor and that there are six 'notches'.  The motor shaft seems to be spring loaded.   If you press the shaft into the motor at the commutator end it pops back out again.  Also if you turn the motorshaft holding it pressed in the 'notches' disappear.

 

Yes I have had the Q6 motor apart and there was an eBay contact who was most helpful (‘Jack’ (jacclar_0) an aftermarket supplier on eBay).  He was going to look for a replacement motor for the Heljan but never came back to me.  There are more details on my Blog:

 

 

As you say the problem will be the flywheels and plastic connectors for the drive shafts.  I have attached some pictures to jog other peoples memories.  I don't think there is space between the motor can, and the flywheel for a conventional gear puller.   I removed the brass flywheels on my Q6 with heat (standing the motor on an Aga hot plate).  This is out of the question with the Hejan motor until the plastic drive shaft couplings are removed.  Heljan models seem to be a 'click fit' without any glue.  I am suspecting that the couplings must be pushed into  place.  That would be interesting to know and a question to ask Heljan / Gaugemaster.

 

49832302133_fd04f57867_5k.jpg

 

49832839181_c767be6dec_5k.jpg

 

49832301663_8662c2219c_5k.jpg

 

Let us know if you make any progress.

 

Regards

 

Ray

Hi Ray,

 

I had a failed motor a few weeks ago with a class16, which has a similar arrangement of plastic coupling inside a brass flywheel. A couple of spare motors were purchased from Olivias, and regretably I decided on the DIY option of removing and re-fitting the flywheels and plastic couplers myself - they will do this for a small charge if you send the old motor.

 

Having removed the defective motor I applied some heat from a cigarette lighter to one flywheel, and it softened the glue holding the plastic coupling sufficiently for this to be removed. The coupling suffered minor repairable damage from a little softening, the second one I managed without any damage at all. I then turned to removing the flywheels from the motor shaft, and had no success at all, trying a bit more heat (probably not enough), and also attempting to hold the flywheel whilst thumping the end of the motor shaft with a punch and hammer!

 

The project has been on hold since, I thought it would be a useful "experience" to add but I'm rather wishing I'd let Olivias do the job!

 

To add insult to injury it is clear that there are "issues" with the Heljan spares service now under new management, once upon a time I'm sure Howes were able to sell complete motors with flywheels and couplers factory fitted.

 

John.

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On 29/04/2020 at 13:05, John Tomlinson said:

..To add insult to injury it is clear that there are "issues" with the Heljan spares service now under new management, once upon a time I'm sure Howes were able to sell complete motors with flywheels and couplers factory fitted.....

 

I didn't want to say too much about the Gaugemaster website.  Howes would sell a complete sprue with a range of detail parts.  The Howe's site was readily searchable.  Gaugemaster want to sell the individual detail items at a cost presumably taking account of their time and effort to find and remove the individual items from the sprue.

 

Thanks John and take care.

 

Regards

 

Ray

Edited by Silver Sidelines
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23 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

Headcodes can be sorted with some from Precision labels. And agree with the comments re the illumination - as supplied its not the best but if it offends theres a solution above.

 

Beware if taking the body off if the latest iterations have the same overcomplicated sprung buffer fixings as the early ones Once removed they are almost guaranteed to be lost when you try and replace them. Doing away with them doesnt cause any issues - the body will then be retained by the 4 clips in the same way as all other Heljan lcoos and this is more than adequate - just trim the buffer shanks down and glue them in place

 

 

 

 

 

 

I picked up a tip on here ages ago which helped me.

Take a clear plastic bag and place the model inside. Removal of the buffers is then risk free (so long an no holes in the bag) as anything which pings off is captured inside the bag for retrieval.

You could for safety's sake, even leave the buffers and springs inside the bag until you are ready to reassemble so you cannot loose them though do beware of the springs locking with on another.

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17 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

Hi Ray,

 

I had a failed motor a few weeks ago with a class16, which has a similar arrangement of plastic coupling inside a brass flywheel. A couple of spare motors were purchased from Olivias, and regretably I decided on the DIY option of removing and re-fitting the flywheels and plastic couplers myself - they will do this for a small charge if you send the old motor.

 

Having removed the defective motor I applied some heat from a cigarette lighter to one flywheel, and it softened the glue holding the plastic coupling sufficiently for this to be removed. The coupling suffered minor repairable damage from a little softening, the second one I managed without any damage at all. I then turned to removing the flywheels from the motor shaft, and had no success at all, trying a bit more heat (probably not enough), and also attempting to hold the flywheel whilst thumping the end of the motor shaft with a punch and hammer!

 

The project has been on hold since, I thought it would be a useful "experience" to add but I'm rather wishing I'd let Olivias do the job!

 

To add insult to injury it is clear that there are "issues" with the Heljan spares service now under new management, once upon a time I'm sure Howes were able to sell complete motors with flywheels and couplers factory fitted.

 

John.

 

Plastic drive cups in brass flywheels issues are not unique to Heljan as several of our fleet of Bachmann 43s suffered .... you could hear the motor running but no traction, the plastic insert was spinning freely in the brass flywheel. Soulution was to get in there, ensure cup is pushed home and very carefully touch a couple of drops of superglue on to the join between plastic and brass. No further trouble....

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  • 1 month later...
On 30/04/2020 at 06:54, Phil Bullock said:

 

Plastic drive cups in brass flywheels issues are not unique to Heljan as several of our fleet of Bachmann 43s suffered .... you could hear the motor running but no traction, the plastic insert was spinning freely in the brass flywheel. Soulution was to get in there, ensure cup is pushed home and very carefully touch a couple of drops of superglue on to the join between plastic and brass. No further trouble....

In a spirit of wild enthusiasm, I have this afternoon managed to replace the motor in my class 16, which now runs like new!

 

The big difficulty is to get the flywheels off the old motor. As I mentioned above, a tiny bit of heat can be used to soften and remove the plastic drive cups, however I then found that the flywheels were on the motor shaft so tightly that they bent my worm and gear puller!  Given that the motor is a goner, the answer I stumbled on was to break off the motor shaft close to the motor itself - it's not steel as we know it - then with the flywheel standing on a plate with a hole in it beneath the shaft,  belt the protruding bit of shaft with a nail punch and big hammer, which gets the rest of the shaft out.

 

Fitting the flywheels onto the new motor then needs to be done carefully using a vice as one would for any worm fitting. The drive cups need to be cleaned up so they fit with the outer faces flush with the flywheel, and superglued back in.

 

I still think it would have been easier to pay Olivia's a fiver to do the job.

 

John.

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5 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

..... I have this afternoon managed to replace the motor in my class 16, which now runs like new!..

 

A great sense of achievement - well done.  'This Afternoon'?  Why not in the garden?

 

Cheers Ray

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I gave my re-motored class 16 a good run yesterday, and then tried it with another still with its original motor. Interestingly, both ran quite happily coupled together, and appear to have a very similar power/ speed profile. So I'm wondering if the Olivia's motors are the same effectively as the Heljan originals, just a bit better made?

 

I'm really pleased to have found this replacement source, as I consider all three small diesels using them, BTH type 1, NB type 1, and Clayton to be excellent models, let down only by the motor fitted at the factory.

 

John.

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On 07/06/2020 at 13:27, John Tomlinson said:

I gave my re-motored class 16 a good run yesterday, and then tried it with another still with its original motor. Interestingly, both ran quite happily coupled together, and appear to have a very similar power/ speed profile. So I'm wondering if the Olivia's motors are the same effectively as the Heljan originals, just a bit better made?

 

I'm really pleased to have found this replacement source, as I consider all three small diesels using them, BTH type 1, NB type 1, and Clayton to be excellent models, let down only by the motor fitted at the factory.

 

John.

Hi,

Although this took place before I joined Heljan, I'm almost certain the motors were supplied to Olivia's as run-ons from our own production so are identical to those fitted in the models at the factory. 

 

Hope this helps

 

Ben

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5 hours ago, 61661 said:

Hi,

Although this took place before I joined Heljan, I'm almost certain the motors were supplied to Olivia's as run-ons from our own production so are identical to those fitted in the models at the factory. 

 

Hope this helps

 

Ben

 

Hello Ben

 

If Heljan are still producing models with this family of motor, can they make them more readily available for modellers to fit? 

 

Cheers

 

Ray

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  • 1 month later...

Evening all. Dunno if this has been covered before or on a different forum etc. 
 

I bought six Heljan class 17 chassis, six years ago, for a tenner each. No probs with five of em, they all work very well, but today one self ignited under load. The smoke was cool to look at but completely wrecked the motor. 

So on the whole I have used these chassis to build ‘what Might Have Been Locos’, if the Claytons had been re-engineered. 
 

But I also took a Hornby class 29 body and, with a little fettling, fitted it straight on to the Heljan chassis. Flipping great locos. 
 

I need help with an alternative motor for the melted one. Preferably a Mishima one, which will require the absolute minimum of messing around with shaft lengths to fit the brass fly wheels and then fit the cups for the drive shafts. I am happy to hack the chassis to fit a flat can motor. Many thanks in advance for any help and advice. 
 

cheers....Grizz8E01FCD1-5042-4999-AB25-2EC91E8168EB.jpeg.73f4f57a5df53cf8b6599f0fbbf25604.jpeg2D907065-E2CD-49D9-9C0B-9E981D8F2A07.jpeg.4bddf91130ccede201a668228427dac6.jpeg

 

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The answer, if you go higher up the page, is Olivia's Trains of Sheffield, who can supply motors.

 

For a small extra fee, if you send them the old motor they'll re-fit the flywheels and send you a new assembly ready to drop in.

 

As I said above, this isn't what I did, but wish I had!

 

John.

Edited by John Tomlinson
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7 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

The answer, if you go higher up the page, is Olivia's Trains of Sheffield, who can supply motors.

 

For a small extra fee, if you send them the old motor they'll re-fit the flywheels and send you a new assembly ready to drop in.

 

As I said above, this isn't what I did, but wish I had!

 

John.


Cheers for your help John. I will probably send the old motor to Olivias and get them to swap over the fly wheels and cups. Plan to give them a ring on Thursday.

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4 hours ago, Grizz said:


Cheers for your help John. I will probably send the old motor to Olivias and get them to swap over the fly wheels and cups. Plan to give them a ring on Thursday.

You're welcome.

 

I do have a question however, re. your photos above. Did Southern GP's ever have yellow ends?

 

John.

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19 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

You're welcome.

 

I do have a question however, re. your photos above. Did Southern GP's ever have yellow ends?

 

John.


haha, nope they didn’t, well spotted. My folks brought me back six cheap Proto 2000 Santa Fe Blue and Yellow GP9s from America back in the early 2000s, they were $39.99 each. The Santa Fe blue and yellow freight livery was a bit loud so I decided to make up my own livery. I had a load of presfix steam era Southern transfers, hence the abominations you see in the photos.

 

 

19 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

Hi Grizz,

 

Another question if I may re.your picture.

 

Are the wheel sets replacements for the Proto 2000 axles that split, and if so may I ask where you got them from?

 

Thanks,

 

John.


They are the originals that I took out from the GP9s, all 24 of them. After many years mine suddenly suffered from this irritating occurrence so it was either find a replacement or bin the locos. Very straight forward job. Unscrew the draft boxes and remove them. Remove the bogie side frames and shaped packing pieces behind them. Unclip  the bottom retaining clip, lift out the old wheel sets and drop in the new ones. Repeating the first few steps in reverse. The wheel sets might seem loose until you replace the retaining clip. All run as good as new. 
 

Walthers in the US., as below. Quite good value considering the alternative is chucking out six locos. 
 

3AE5D1C7-A01C-494D-B0C3-FD37D12C5B94.jpeg.8c6cc99e61579efc3fa4f271fb3e0f8d.jpeg

 

Edited by Grizz
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Many thanks for the answers.

 

I do have a collection of US locos, many bought over there whilst on lineside photography trips, though I'll never have a layout. The Walthers price looks a good one, even when the postage is added. I have bought the wheels before from the place in Slough.

 

I do rather like your "Southern" GP9's - the yellow jazzes them up a bit. I've never been to the Southeast US, so haven't seen the originals, though I did see an ex.Southern high nose GP50 once near Bluefield WV.  in NS livery, which looked quite nice.

 

John.

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Athearn 60024 Sd40-2 gear pack does the job too, c$6 for 6 axles. I bought a job lot and shipped them back as I have a number of Proto 2000 locos. 

There a bit hard to find at the moment but ive used Hornby class 50 wheels on some proto 2000 models in the past.

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  • 2 months later...

Just purchased a preowned Heljan Class 17 Clayton from Hattons the green D8600, they did say that the motor was noisy but I went ahead and purchased it. Done a 3 hour running in at half speed and plenty of lub to try to quieten the motor to no avail.This morning I decided to fit dcc decoder to try it out on my layout after ten minutes running at half speed total seizure of motor, and the front left hand front window fell out. Heljan quality going down the tubes Clayton going back to Hattons, hope there 0 gauge is not the same for 2021.

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