End of Branchline terminus layout advice

[davegardnerisme]

16 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

For this period, any remaining passenger service would be a DMU, surely? Was not pre-Mk1 stock pretty much extinct except in a handful of exceptional cases?

 

Ok interesting .. so something like: https://www.oliviastrains.com/trains/mt/Bachmann-diesel/Bachmann-derby-lightweight-dmu/Bachmann-32-515a-derby-lightweight-2-car-dmu-in-br-green-livery-with-half-yellow-ends/

 

?

[Compound2632]

I'm no expert on DMUs - don't know which ones were in use in that part of the country - but yes, I suppose so.

[Nearholmer]

The very first batch of Derby Lightweights, which couldn't mate with subsequent batches, were allocated to services in the West Riding, which might help.

 

To become an expert on DMMUs, or to cure insomnia, or simply to become confused by vast tables of information, consult Railcar.co.uk

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, davegardnerisme said:

 

So in terms of stock, I'm thinking it would be reasonable to see passenger coaches a-la:

• https://www.hattons.co.uk/484413/hornby_r4234b_po_ex_lms_stanier_p3_corridor_first_m1080m_in_br_maroon_pre_owned_like_new/stockdetail.aspx
• https://www.hattons.co.uk/484413/hornby_r4234b_po_ex_lms_stanier_p3_corridor_first_m1080m_in_br_maroon_pre_owned_like_new/stockdetail.aspx

For shunting, I'm thinking a Class 31 seems a reasonable fit? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_31

 

My personal preference here is probably to run stock that makes sense for the layout if possible, but I'm not obsessive about it. My railway knowledge is poor, although I am keen to learn more.

 

Suggestions gratefully accepted!

As already noted by the 1960s, and very definitely the 1970s, the branch passenger service - if it had survived - would be worked by a DMU.  Even by the early 1960s steam worked branch lines had become relatively uncommon and any diesel loco worked branch passenger services had mostly gone by the mid-late 1960s.  So for passenger trains you really need a DMU.

 

The branch loco once things were dieselised for ftreight would - depending again on geography and BR Region - most likely be a Class 24 or 25 or a 31 (except in Scotland and on the WR or SR).  so your idea of a 31 would be ok. 

 

What you do need to think about are liveries because from the late 1960s onwards green diesels and dmus were progressively being repainted into blue livery although soem survived in green for a few years, but in pretty poor external condition.

[The Johnster]

Further livery variations might include green diesel locos and dmus with large/full end yellow warning panels.  These began appearing at the same time as the blue livery in 1966, but were applied at the depots rather than at main works overhauls, so could be seen as fresh bright yellow paint on dirty locos and units.  In '66 and 7, with steam still operating in the area, one might see green or blue diesels with small or large yellow warning panels (some locos were painted in the blue livery with small warning panels in the very early days of the livery, including 25s).  Another thing is that the old NE region was prone to mixing it's dmu sets up a bit, so you could see a 2 car with one green and one blue coach.

 

If you are going to set your period pre-66, none of this will bother you, and it's pretty much wall to wall small yellow panels, with maybe the odd dmu still sporting 'whiskers'.  Loco hauled stock would be unusual after dmus had taken over the passenger workings, but you might see an occasional excursion. Your suggested Staniers will be perfect for this, in BR lined maroon livery.  Non-gangwayed stock was more or less extinct by about '64.

[davegardnerisme]

37 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Further livery variations might include green diesel locos and dmus with large/full end yellow warning panels.  These began appearing at the same time as the blue livery in 1966, but were applied at the depots rather than at main works overhauls, so could be seen as fresh bright yellow paint on dirty locos and units.  In '66 and 7, with steam still operating in the area, one might see green or blue diesels with small or large yellow warning panels (some locos were painted in the blue livery with small warning panels in the very early days of the livery, including 25s).  Another thing is that the old NE region was prone to mixing it's dmu sets up a bit, so you could see a 2 car with one green and one blue coach.

 

If you are going to set your period pre-66, none of this will bother you, and it's pretty much wall to wall small yellow panels, with maybe the odd dmu still sporting 'whiskers'.  Loco hauled stock would be unusual after dmus had taken over the passenger workings, but you might see an occasional excursion. Your suggested Staniers will be perfect for this, in BR lined maroon livery.  Non-gangwayed stock was more or less extinct by about '64.

Thank you.

I agree to keep things varied/interesting having the odd difference makes sense. Eg DMU most of the time, but then the occasional loco hauled passenger train. Perhaps the DMU was out of action on that day?

[The Johnster]

If no spare dmu was available at Neville Hill, a scratch set of loco hauled coaches would indeed be possible, with a steam or diesel loco.  A 2 car set with a trailer and a power car with 2 BUT bus engines of 120hp each would not be able to work on a branch with any appreciable gradients if one engine was out.  But most of the time a spare dmu would be forthcoming.  Another reason for the loco hauled scratch set might be summer excursions when no dmus could be spared from timetabled revenue traffic; Blackpool, Scarborough, and Filey were typical destinations, and Black 5s the most probable motive power, or 4Fs in the very early 60s.  Run in tender first with the empty stock, and back out tender first when the train returns in the evening.

[uax6]

On the emu front you could buy a couple of different units, say a Cravens and a 108 and mix them up, with the trailers working with the power cars of the other. Again check railcard.co.uk for pictures, or Dave F’s photos on this site, as he has photos of all sorts of these combinations.

 

andy g

[davegardnerisme]

So I laid it out.

•  The station seems very long .. especially if I'm running 2 car DMUs into it mostly for passengers.
• I ended up moving the cross over (LHS below) and double slip (RHS below) nearer to each other, bringing the mainline Y split in a bit. This reduces the run around loop length, but I think I need the extra room to model the bridge. The goal is the bridge fits on the middle board completely. It also pushes the yard points onto the near board, reducing the overall siding length.
• Ignore the random piece of track on the far left front which won't be there.
• I included the idea of having one of the yard sidings run right to the end, and into the end of an old stone warehouse.

I've ordered the missing pieces so hopefully this weekend will get the track cut and see how it looks then.

 

[Zomboid]

22 minutes ago, davegardnerisme said:

The station seems very long .. especially if I'm running 2 car DMUs into it mostly for passengers.

That's probably right - you might be building it for DMUs, but the original company would have built it for loco hauled trains. A 2 car train in a partly neglected 5 car platform is exactly the kind of thing that would have been found in many places.

[Flying Pig]

On 05/09/2019 at 10:57, The Stationmaster said:

The branch loco once things were dieselised for ftreight would - depending again on geography and BR Region - most likely be a Class 24 or 25 or a 31 (except in Scotland and on the WR or SR).  so your idea of a 31 would be ok. 

 

Brush 2s (later Class 31) weren't allocated to the former North Eastern Region until after 1970 so wouldn't be likely except in the very south of Yorkshire.  A 24 or 25 would be better. Looking at some photos would be useful as there may also be other possibilities; David Heys collection would probably be a good place to start.

 

From my own brief look at the Railcar site, I think the original Derby Lightweights and their descendants the Class 108s are probably the best bet amongst rtr units.

 

58 minutes ago, davegardnerisme said:

So I laid it out.

 

You don't actually need the single slip as the double slip forms the crossover, so a plain diamond would be better.  The railways didn't provide more S&C (switches and crossings) than absolutely necessary, particularly in quiet locations like this, as it cost money both to build and more importantly to maintain (especially if passenger trains were running over it).  For the same reason, I'm unconvinced by the double slip as the trap could more economically be provided by a couple of catch points without the short siding.  This arrangement was fairly common but unfortunately isn't available rtr in model form; it can pretty easily be mocked up in non-working form however.

[Compound2632]

Allocations of DMUs and Type 2 engines have been discussed in terms of the NE region. At this date, in which region were the former L&Y lines in the West Riding? 

[Harlequin]

Hi Dave,

 

I assume that the Mill sidings are private sidings not operated by BR. If that's the case then you might need to have a lockable gate across the line demarking the boundary between BR track and private track.

This gate should probably be between the platform line and the curved turnout and so you might need some more space between them.

Experts please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Another thought: If the Mill had a rather more extensive private railway system than is visible in your model, you could justify it having it's own loco. The loco could be almost anything you fancy, such as a little Peckett 0-4-0 and you can then legitimately have more than one loco in operation at the same time, adding interest for you and your viewers.

To suggest that the Mill's private railway is bigger you just need to send one end or the other off-scene. I.e. obscure its exit and obscure enough track so that the shunter can hide as if it's pottering around on the other side of the mill/warehouse complex.

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by Harlequin

[davegardnerisme]

6 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Hi Dave,

 

I assume that the Mill sidings are private sidings not operated by BR. If that's the case then you might need to have a lockable gate across the line demarking the boundary between BR track and private track.

This gate should probably be between the platform line and the curved turnout and so you might need some more space between them.

Experts please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Another thought: If the Mill had a rather more extensive private railway system than is visible in your model, you could justify it having it's own loco. The loco could be almost anything you fancy, such as a little Peckett 0-4-0 and you can then legitimately have more than one loco in operation at once.

To suggest that the Mill's private railway is bigger you just need to send one end or the other off-scene. I.e. obscure it's exit and obscure enough track so that the shunter can hide as if it's pottering around on the other side of the mill/warehouse complex.

 

That’s a really nice idea (finish off scene to suggest a larger private railway). 
 

Someone earlier in the thread suggested a Ruston 48DS. 
 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/ruston-hornsby-ltd-r-h-48ds-0-4-0-no-269595-era-4.html

 

Will have a play with that idea.

[uax6]

You would probably see Cravens and BRCW 104’s at this time around the L&Y sections. The 104 you will have to make from the Hornby 110, (a nice easy starters kind of mod, a bit of sanding on the body side, and a bit of filing on the cab front). The Cravens can be a Baccy one.

 

I’d be careful about adding a small private shunter, it’s a modelling cliche and it’s not that typical. Yes to the gate, but most of the time the trip engine would shunt the siding...

 

I agree on the slip instead of a pair of traps, and quite often the traps were inside the point....

 

Andy g

[davegardnerisme]

As a beginner I think it’s essential to embrace some cliches!

 

But noted .. I will start with the gate anyway, and my first priority for rolling stock is a DMU anyway. 
 

Looking forward to getting some track down and runnable. 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Allocations of DMUs and Type 2 engines have been discussed in terms of the NE region. At this date, in which region were the former L&Y lines in the West Riding? 

North Eastern Region - if the ex L&Y branch I travelled on was any guide.

[davegardnerisme]

On 05/09/2019 at 18:04, uax6 said:

On the emu front you could buy a couple of different units, say a Cravens and a 108 and mix them up, with the trailers working with the power cars of the other. Again check railcard.co.uk for pictures, or Dave F’s photos on this site, as he has photos of all sorts of these combinations.

 

andy g

Some fascinating pics here. Lots of variation, including diesel locos hauling coaches and DMUs. 
 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/davidwf2009/albums/72157626316585532/page1/

[uax6]

This one is particularly interesting:

 

The leadin vehicle is a Met Cam DMBS, the next looks like it could be a BRCW 104 centre car (you could use a Hornby 110 centre car, with the window frames removed and the crease sanded out), next is a Met Cam DMS or DMC in blue (small panel I guess!). The set looks like a three car BRCW 104, again convertable from the Hornby 110.

Dave F has a lot of interesting DMU piccies in there, I note a fair few of the BRCW 110 units as well (the Hornby one just needs the crease in the side sanded down a tad to make it look better), and some 108's too. Plenty of fun to be had there!

 

Andy G

[TheSignalEngineer]

Tyseley turned out a variety of mongrel sets especially when the improved WMPTE services culminating with the Birmingham Cross City line came on the scene from 1975 onwards.

One morning I rode to work on a set which had a blue/grey Class 122 DMBS leading, MetCam Class 101 centre car in blue band on white and a Cravens Class 105 DMCL in plain blue with the 1st class downgraded to Standard class bringing up the rear.

[Flying Pig]

A map of BR(NE). There are actually rather few branch termini.

 

British Railways - North Eastern Region - Yorkshire area railway map - 1959 by mikeyashworth, on Flickr

[Nearholmer]

Holmfirth could provide some inspiration ...... superb station building, and a rail-served wool warehouse.

 

And, the only picture I can find of Meltham station seems to have a huge mill looming over it. 

[uax6]

Meltham also had a lovely traffic of David Brown tractors, train loads of them.....

 

andy g

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

A map of BR(NE). There are actually rather few branch termini.

 

British Railways - North Eastern Region - Yorkshire area railway map - 1959 by mikeyashworth, on Flickr

But there are two ex L&Y (Holmfirth and Clayton West) plus Oxenhope as an ex Midland Rly survivor.  1959 was a fairly late date for any former NER branches to have survived.

[davegardnerisme]

On 03/09/2019 at 11:44, Compound2632 said:

When you lay the double track section, set the tracks to 45 mm centres, rather than Peco's 50 cm (or 2 in?).

Not don’t this yet, but will today. Any guidance for how much trimming needed?

 

Some progress. A first cut is completed (modulo trimming points).

 

I swapped a few turnouts round. Curved one went from mill trap to on the main line towards end of station. The first Y where mainline hits point work after bridge was swapped for a large radius left hand turn out.