Milk by rail

[F2Andy]

I am curious how milk was handled back in the day (pre-war). There were obviously trains of milk tankers taking the stuff to the cities, but would you ever see just one or two tanks on their own? I would guess the local pickup goods would be too slow, but what would have been a faster way to get the milk from the farm to the dairy?

 

The reason behind this is that I am wondering what would justify just one or two milk tankers on a rural BLT. Could there be a small dairy/creamery; what would it look like?

[chrisf]

You could have seen one two tanks on their own but I think it more likely that they would have been attached to the branch passenger because milk was passenger rated traffic.   As late as 1962 and possibly later two milk tanks a day were tripped from Saltash to Plymouth on the back of the local passenger - in this case a pair of bubble cars.   Don't foget that before milk tanks were introduced milk was conveyed in churns which themselves were conveyed in vans.   As late as the early 1960s there was a regular van for churn traffic from Chippenham to Aylesbury.

 

Other are better qualified to describe creameries but you could do worse than research the one at Hemyock.

 

Chris

[The Johnster]

The main trains were made up of portions from branches attached at junctions, and pre-war still had some churn traffic loaded in vans.  These portions being worked off the branch, and of course the empties being returned the following morning, are what you are interested and there were several ways in which the traffic was operated, according to how much traffic there was.  One or two Miltas might well be dealt with as tail traffic for the branch passenger train, or be a separate working if the passenger timetable did not suit the main line connection.  

 

Dairies tended to be industrial looking buildings with tall chimneys, served by a siding with a loading dock, often with a canopy or cover over it.  They varied in size and output.  At Marshfield in South Wales the milk was brought by road tankers to the goods yard for loading into the rail tanks; the dairy was about half a mile away from the railway, and there may have been other places where this happened.   

[brianusa]

This interesting topic has been well covered and reference can be found in the search.

      Brian

[Adam]

1 hour ago, chrisf said:

As late as 1962 and possibly later two milk tanks a day were tripped from Saltash to Plymouth on the back of the local passenger - in this case a pair of bubble cars. 

 

Chris

 

Certainly later - I've seen colour photos of the units in Rail Blue. Dad was brought up in Saltash, he might well have a more accurate notion of when it ended. The dairy there wasn't actually rail-served; the milk was tripped to the yard by lorry.

 

Adam

[PatB]

2 hours ago, brianusa said:

This interesting topic has been well covered and reference can be found in the search.

      Brian

Indeed it has. To narrow your search a bit, Karhedron of this parish is one of the resident experts. A search on his forum name should turn up contributions in most of the relevant threads. 

[F2Andy]

I appreciate there have been other threads about milk tankers, but not quite what I am looking for.

 

I have had a think about the numbers involved... A milk tanker had a capacity of 6000 gallon (27 l or 27 tonne). A modern cow typically produces 22 l a day (may have been less before the war, when Fresians were pretty much unknown). To fill a milk tanker you need 12,000 cows. Looks like modern farmers use about half an acre per cow; assuming that has not changed (which is dubious), 12,000 cows need 6000 acres, or about 10 square miles. It would therefore be reasonable to suppose a milk tanker could be filled from the farms served by a single station in a region with fairly intensive dairy farming. Does that all sound reasonable?

That is not the case for my situation, so I think the answer here is that I cannot justify milk tankers on the layout, but should look at churns in vans. Even the issue of what churns is not straightforward, with 17 gallon (77 l) conical churns originally used, and the more familiar cylindrical churns of 10 gallon (45 l) capacity introduced in the 1930's (according to Wiki anyway).

And then I need to find a passenger-rated van in N gauge that would be used by the SR... Would this be suitable?
https://www.Dapol.co.uk/2p-012-202-n-gauge-maunsell-brake-van-maunsell-lined-green-700-2149

[Fat Controller]

The larger rail tanks were 3000 gallon capacity, whilst there were others of 2000 gallons. The road-rail tanks used for some flows were 2000 gallon. The van you link to would have been at the modern end of the range for milk traffic on the Southern; most would have been rather older, whilst some were positively ante-deluvian.

[The Johnster]

The Maunsell van B is ideal for Southern milk traffic, and older vans which are also suitable are not available RTR.  An alternative would be a Queen Mary bogie brake van, especially for West Country traffic; are these available RTR in N?

[AberdeenBill]

Did any cities other than London receive milk in bulk (tankers) by rail?

 

Thanks,

Bill

 

[melmerby]

5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The Maunsell van B is ideal for Southern milk traffic, and older vans which are also suitable are not available RTR.  An alternative would be a Queen Mary bogie brake van, especially for West Country traffic; are these available RTR in N?

This the SR GF one:

[brianusa]

Hornby van train presumably carrying Hornby churns.  At least in the grey vans with opening doors!

     Brian.

[Karhedron]

On 07/09/2019 at 20:05, AberdeenBill said:

Did any cities other than London receive milk in bulk (tankers) by rail?

 

London got the lion's share of the bulk milk traffic but I believe other flows existed. There is a shot of A4 0004 WILLIAM WHITELAW near Aberdeen with the 18:43 milk train to Perth 17 April 1964. I am not sure how many other cities had similar flows.

 

[Karhedron]

On 05/09/2019 at 20:37, F2Andy said:

I am curious how milk was handled back in the day (pre-war). There were obviously trains of milk tankers taking the stuff to the cities, but would you ever see just one or two tanks on their own? I would guess the local pickup goods would be too slow, but what would have been a faster way to get the milk from the farm to the dairy?

 

The reason behind this is that I am wondering what would justify just one or two milk tankers on a rural BLT. Could there be a small dairy/creamery; what would it look like?

 

Yes, you could find small creameries at the end of branchlines (and large ones for that matter). Normal practice would be to convey the tanker or tankers to the junction behind the local passenger service. At the junction, the tankers would then be attached to a fast train for their journey to London. Milk tanks were passenger rated. Whilst dedicated milk trains were the norm, it was not uncommon to see a couple behind an express passenger service, particularly in pre-nationalisation times.

 

The best example of the sort of setup you are looking for would be the CWS Creamery at Wallingford. This diminutive building normally only filled 1 tanker per day. Plans have been published for this in 4mm scale and I know at least 2 layout that have used these as the basis for their own buildings. Annoyingly I have not been able to find any photos of the Wallingford train with milk tanker attached but there must be one around somewhere.

 

Here is the creamery circa 1960.

 

 

And here it is reproduced in N Gauge on Carl Woodward's superb "Vale of Oxbury" layout.

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by Karhedron

[Nearholmer]

Karhedron

 

given your extensive, possibly exhaustive, knowledge of this topic, when are you going to write a book about it, if you haven’t already?

 

Kevin

[melmerby]

Why were these places called Creameries when they were a collecting point for milk? They didn't make cream did they?

Milkeries? Doesn't sound right

[Steamport Southport]

1 minute ago, melmerby said:

Why were these places called Creameries when they were a collecting point for milk? They didn't make cream did they?

Milkeries? Doesn't sound right

 

Dairies does though. I presume they used the excess milk fat* for cream or at least separated it.

 

*Whatever the proper term is.

 

 

 

Jason

[Karhedron]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Karhedron

 

given your extensive, possibly exhaustive, knowledge of this topic, when are you going to write a book about it, if you haven’t already?

 

I have been looking for the definitive book on milk on the rails for years and I am reaching the reluctant conclusion that if I want to read it, I may first have to write it.  It won't be anytime soon though as I have a full-time and 3 young kids to take up what spare time I have left. I have done a couple of articles but 3000 words is a lot easier than 50,000+.

 

Annoyingly, I don't feel I have a sufficiently comprehensive picture of the subject. The more I research, the more questions I find that I want answers to. I have a lot of facts and pictures but some of them don't connect properly (yet). It is like trying to do a jigsaw puzzle with half the pieces missing.

 

Still, it may happen one day (once I win the lottery and retire).

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Why were these places called Creameries when they were a collecting point for milk? They didn't make cream did they?

Milkeries? Doesn't sound right

 

Technically a creamery is indeed somewhere where milk was separated. However it seems to have become applied as a more catch-all term for facilities where the milk was processed in some way. Many railside creameries did indeed process milk into cream, cheese, butter, yogurt or powdered milk. Even the simplest creameries like the Wallingford one above chilled the milk before loading into tankers (to give it a chance of reaching London in a drinkable state) and so appear to have qualified for the term "creamery".

 

At the other end, the term dairy seemed to be used for places where customers could purchase milk. There were also bottling plants which received milk in by rail and sent it out in bottles on milk floats but didn't have a front "shop" as such.

 

Many rail-served creameries actually received more milk in for processing than they dispatched to London. Bailey Gate on the old Somerset and Dorset line was primarily a cheese factory, as was Appleby in Cumbria. This sort of information can often be gleaned by reading histories of the local town or by analysing the working timetables (where available) as these give a better idea of what went in and out. Photographs are great for modelers but do not always give the whole picture.

[Nearholmer]

I can empathise, but offer little comfort, in that I have researched two topics in great depth, with a view to writing short books when I retire. But, now I've retired, then un-retired, retired again, and am on the brink of un-retiring again, absolutely no progress has been made!

 

The other option would be a website, of course. No money in it, unless perhaps a milk supplier pays to advertise on it, but at least it would be flexible, and could grow as time permits.

[Karhedron]

On 06/09/2019 at 09:00, F2Andy said:

I have had a think about the numbers involved... A milk tanker had a capacity of 6000 gallon (27 l or 27 tonne). A modern cow typically produces 22 l a day (may have been less before the war, when Fresians were pretty much unknown). To fill a milk tanker you need 12,000 cows. Looks like modern farmers use about half an acre per cow; assuming that has not changed (which is dubious), 12,000 cows need 6000 acres, or about 10 square miles. It would therefore be reasonable to suppose a milk tanker could be filled from the farms served by a single station in a region with fairly intensive dairy farming. Does that all sound reasonable?

 

Tankers were not filled at every station though. Tankers were normally loaded at dedicated rail-served creameries which were spread along the lines in milk-producing areas (e.g St Erth, Lostwithiel, Hemyock). Each creamery would act as concentration point for the local farms in its area, even though other stations might be nearer to the farm than that creamery. There were also a few places where milk tankers could be loaded at sidings from road tankers with the creamery being located a short distance away (e.g. Penzance, Dolcoath, Torrington).

 

On 06/09/2019 at 09:00, F2Andy said:

That is not the case for my situation, so I think the answer here is that I cannot justify milk tankers on the layout, but should look at churns in vans. Even the issue of what churns is not straightforward, with 17 gallon (77 l) conical churns originally used, and the more familiar cylindrical churns of 10 gallon (45 l) capacity introduced in the 1930's (according to Wiki anyway).

And then I need to find a passenger-rated van in N gauge that would be used by the SR... Would this be suitable?
https://www.Dapol.co.uk/2p-012-202-n-gauge-maunsell-brake-van-maunsell-lined-green-700-2149

 

Churn traffic declined pretty rapidly during the 1930s as milk tankers caught on. Churns were much lower capacity and much more labout-intensive to handle. To be fair, churn traffic didn't completely disappear from the railway until around 1960. Since you are modelling pre-war, some churn traffic certainly seems likely although I would not rule out tankers. The 6-wheeled tanker modelled by Dapol appeared in 1931 so would certainly suit your period.

 

Churns were carried in passenger rated vans, the GWR built specialist vehicles for this traffic (the assorted Siphons). I believe the SR made do with regular vans. The Dapol Maunsell brake is a bit on the modern side but is the right sort of vehicle, as is the Farish Bogie B.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/61063/Graham_Farish_374_630_SR_50_Bogie_B_Luggage_Van_Southern_Green/StockDetail.aspx

 

You would also need a passenegr rated Brake vehicle such as the Queen Mary brake van shown above. Here is one on an SR milk train in BR days at Seaton Junction with the creamery visible in the background.

 

 

I will be back in the morning with more thoughts....

[Nearholmer]

The classic SR milk train brake would probably be a 4W stove-fitted (to keep the guard warm) Van C, as preserved at the Bluebell along with a 6W milk tanker https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/404.html

 

The discussion that I kicked-off about SR milk services in East Sussex enlightened me, in that it revealed: Station A had a very basic tanker-loading depot (I still don't know whether it had cooled storage facility, but presume it must have), while Station B, next along, also sent out a great deal of milk, but in churns in vans, right up to at least WW2, and that both tanks and vans travelled all the way to a bottling plant in SE London, involving a trip to Victoria and back out on a different route, as part of passenger trains.

 

The SR inherited a lot of milk vans, for churn traffic, from the pre-grouping companies, but from what I can work out, these were gradually pensioned-off in favour of standard bogie and 4W passenger rated vans, but I surmise that the ones without guard's compartments would have been used for preference in churn traffic, because the trains to which they were attached already had guard's compartments, and the ones with guard's compartments were needed for other duties. Trouble is, when you look at a photo showing an SR train with a 4W van tacked on, which is to say very many trains, you can't tell what's inside it, churns, parcels, Royal Mail bags, bicycles, or prams (on some seaside branches there were so many prams they had a van to themselves - presumably the babies were removed unless particularly fractious).

 

Other places also sent tanks to London, all the way, by passenger train, which is helpful to modellers, because it means that we don't have to reproduce entire, dedicated, milk trains if we don't have the room to do so.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

Possibly the strangest train formation containing a milk tank that I have ever read of ....... in the middle of a train that has a restaurant at one end, unless the dagger means that it had to be tacked on the back/front to preserve the corridor.

 

LMS, 1932, reproduced in the book shown.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Nearholmer

[keefer]

I think the tank and brake van are still at the end of the train - note it says the Stafford coaches are to be attached 'front behind Perth-Euston van.'

Edited September 13, 2019 by keefer

[Nearholmer]

You’re probably right; I could it hard to follow.

 

Apparently, the tank came off at Rugby, to be forwarded by a different train.

 

A lot of trouble to get the milk to town, so milk must have been quite expensive to the end-consumer.