Signal model detailing

[Hamburger]

Hi all,

 

I am just starting modelling UK railways and I am not sure about the detail (and maybe operational) quality of different brands of signal models.

Unfortunately I cant just step into a shop and have a look.

So can anyone please give me advice which signals are representing the real thing in a sufficient way?

 

Second question: I know that the Big Four used different signal designs.

But I would like to have an "average" design on my layout - is there one?

 

Thank you

Wolf

[sorabain]

21 minutes ago, Hamburger said:

Hi all,

 

I am just starting modelling UK railways and I am not sure about the detail (and maybe operational) quality of different brands of signal models.

Unfortunately I cant just step into a shop and have a look.

So can anyone please give me advice which signals are representing the real thing in a sufficient way?

 

Second question: I know that the Big Four used different signal designs.

But I would like to have an "average" design on my layout - is there one?

 

Thank you

Wolf

 

For the best advice we will need to know which era. By the last paragraph, it sounds like you're after the "big four" but good to confirm in case you actually mean to model a bit later and just assuming that "big four" signals were still present.

[Hamburger]

Thank you, right, there is important information missing.

Well, I do not want to be limited to certain liveries and vehicle types - but of course within limits of technical possibilities and respecting the history.

So decided to have a fictional heritage railway "somewhere in the middle" in present time.

Although fictional it should not be a "toy train" layout but should be based on the real thing and should have fine details.

Edited September 6, 2019 by Hamburger

[TheSignalEngineer]

The later designs of LMS and LNER upper quadrant signals were quite similar and formed the basis for the BR Standard range of posts and fittings. 

Assuming that your heritage line had been stripped on closure the most common supplies of re-useable parts from resignalling schemes would probably be from these sources. 

Over the years Ratio have done various LMS round post signals both as kits and manually operated or motorised ready-to-plant versions.

If you want to build your own then brass parts for many companies through to present day in the MSE range are available from Wizard Models.

[The Johnster]

Dapol also make GW, Southern, and LMS type signals which are very good representations, and work/are lit.  A little expensive at about 38 Euro, and no junction signals yet but they are apparently on the way!  Of the bigger British heritage railways, the Severn Valley, Dart Valley/Torbay Steam, Gloucestershire and Warwickshire, and West Somerset use GW type signals while the Great Central, North Yorkshire, Worth Valley and East Lancs use LMS/LNER types.  The Bluebell, Swanage, and Mid Hants use Southern Railway siganlling.  The main difference is that GW signals are 'lower quadrant', horizontal at danger but sloping down at 45 deg. to the left to show clear.  LMS/LNER, and Southern, signals are 'upper quadrant', horizontal at danger but sloping upwards at 45 deg to the left of the post to show clear.  LMS/LNE signals have square white painted wooden posts, while some Southern signals have lattice steel posts.

 

BR standard signalling, in the few places it was used, followed LMS/LNER practice, and some late GW/BR Western Region signals followed the GW style but with grey/silver painted steel tubular posts.  Big Four signals remained in use in most places until they were replaced by colour light signals, a preocess taking several decades over the 50s to the 80s, and there are still some Big Four semaphore signals in use.  Signalling is a complex subject but a very sweeping generalisation is that the red with a white band signals are used as 'home' or 'starter' signals controlling the entrance to a station area from a section or from the station area into the section. They show red or green lights at night.  There are also 'distant' signals, yellow with a black band and a 'fish tail' echoed by the black band; these show yellow or green lights and may be passed at danger.  Their purpose is to warn the driver that the home signal he is approaching may be at danger.  If the signal is cleared, obviously showing a green light at night, the driver can assume that all the signals in the station area ahead are clear and he can run through at speed.

 

The rears of signal boards are painted white with black bands.

 

Lines are divided into 'block sections' between signal boxes, and the area controlled by the signal box is known as 'station limits.  Signalmen pass trains between each other sort of a bit like a bucket chain, with the idea that there is at least the distance of a section between trains running at speed.  Within station limits, smaller shunting signals control shunting and similar movements which take place at low speed.

 

Another feature of GW signals is that they have a decorative finial on top, a ball and spike.  The ball is painted red in the case of a home/starter signal and yellow in the case of a distant, said to be guidance to the driver of exactly what sort of signal he is at if the signal board has blown down in a storm.  He is then to assume the signal is at danger whatever evidence there appears to be to the contrary such as the last and next signals being clear, and if it is a home/distant stop signal stop at it and not pass it until he has verbal permission from the signalman. 

 

Basically, your trains should never pass stop signals at danger, 'on', and the signals should be cleared, 'off', before the train passes them and returned on as soon as it has passed,  A train passing a distant that it on should be slowing down as the driver has seen it and is preparing to be stopped at the next signal.  On lines where the maximum speed allowed is less than 40mph, 'fixed' distants are provided which are simply the yellow arms nailed to the post, permanently on.  Drivers must assume passing these that the next signal is on.

 

This describes (briefly) signalling on 'Absolute Block' regulated lines, which are capable of carrying passenger traffic.  Freight only lines are worked by 'Permissive Block' regulations, and trains can follow each other through block sections; an off signal merely indicates that the line is clear as far as the driver can see ahead.  Speed is limited to 15mph, and there are no distants.

 

I claim no authoritative or definitive knowledge, and this is intended as a very basic overview of UK signalling methods what type of signal does what job, and overall appearance.  Signals are usually placed to the left of the running line, and we use the left line of a double track railway, but if there is a problem for the driver sighting the signal it may be placed to the right.  

 

Hope this is of use to you, Wolf.

Edited September 6, 2019 by The Johnster

[Hamburger]

Helpful comments indeed.

Thanks for reminding me to share more info about my plans, obviously it helped, thanks for the idea that a heritage line might have been completely stripped before (re-)opening, which is a good argument to eventually use different signal types, and many thanks for the good explanation of UK signal systems.

 

Last weekend I spent some time searching the internet for suitable models.

Well, Hornby signals - for me it's a no go.

WML models - fine, I want them, but I will not have enough patience to build them. And the ready assembled models - I think worth the price, but limited number of versions available.

So it will be Ratio or Dapol. 

 

I have to think about whether it is necessary or not to have electric remote control and will I have to find out if the detailing of both Ratio and Dapol is similar.

 

Thanks again

Wolf

 

[The Johnster]

Not much between them so far as detail is concerned,  Ratio do ready made and kits, and the kit for the junction signal gives a very flexible variety of signal formats, but they are a bit fiddly with some very delicate parts.  They come with fittings to work with rod or wire control, or can be motorised.  The Dapols are a more limited range, with junction signals to be introduced shortly, and more expensive, but are lit and fully working with electric servo motors.

[philsandy]

I have built 4 Ratio signals, 2 of them junction signals. They do look very good, very true to scale, ie. not slightly oversize like some. But my god they are fiddly, and take hours to assemble, and get working with a remote device. I persevered and got them working on the layout using Ratio remote control kit.

[Campaman]

I don't really find the Ratio kits fiddly, but then I have been building plastic model kits since I was a wee one.

 

The best advice I can give with the Ratio kits is to replace any of the plastic shafts with thin wire, makes them much more durable.

[The Johnster]

It is my contention that kits in general are designed by two differing philosophies.  One is to provide an acceptably realistic and detailed model at a much lower price than it could be done as fully assembled RTR/RTP.  This makes such kits suitable for items of awkward shape or for which there is insufficient demand to make RTR/RTP a viable proposition.  

 

The other is to provide a very fine scale and accurate model that requires a degree of skill and ability to complete successfully, to satisfy the needs of fine scale modellers and to provide a bit of a challenge, and thus satisfaction when the kit is successfully completed, to modellers who like this sort of approach.  Such kits offer no cost saving over RTR and indeed may be more expensive.  Often the customers are those capable of scratch building to a high standard.

 

Ratio challenges this perception of mine of the kit market's philosophies.  The kits are cheap and are regarded by modellers of my generation as the next step up from Airfix plastic construction kits.  In my day (cue the violins for the poor old man), the successful construction of a Ratio GW 4 wheel coach, especially if you painted it fully lined out, was something of a rite of passage, proving you'd 'graduated' beyond train set RTR and set track curves. It proved not only that you could build a coach with some very delicate parts to attach the footboards, but that you were using flexible track (they need a minimum radius of 2').  

 

I find them a very useful source of items not available otherwise, but am irritated by the delicacy of some plastic components.  The window panels in my signal box were a nightmare!  I have now replaced my swan neck platform lamps with Kyte's Lights working ones, but of my original pack of 12 Ratio swan necks, I managed to make up 5 without breaking the very fine plastic swan necks cutting them as gently as I could manage from the sprue, and of those only one has survived in service without being knocked off.

 

Getting back on topic, their signal kits are very close to the limit of what I can manage these days with my deteriorating steadiness of hand and limited vision, and successfully attaching the back shades that obscure the rear view of the lamps is fraught, at best.  The finials (I model GW) are very fragile as well, and I recommend replacing them with Modelu prints, which are finer detailed as well; the balls are actually hollow!  The plastic ladders are very delicate as well and require great care in separating from the sprue and in general handling.

 

Ratio signals other than bracket signals are available RTP, and I would recommend these rather than the cheaper kits.  With brackets is kits or nothing...

Edited September 13, 2019 by The Johnster