Station off the mainline

[Compound2632]

There is a large amount of material on Moor Street on Mike Musson's Warwickshire Railways, though no detailed description of its operation from the railway side. What seems clear though is that most of the traffic it dealt with - perishables, fruit, bananas - originated from south of Birmingham, so arriving trains would not be reversing in. My guess is that the loop line adjacent to the up goods line was used for arrivals, the locomotive being detached there. I would also guess that any traffic from the north would be tripped from Bordesley. Remember that, as one of the articles on Warwickshire Railways points out, Moor Street was one of several closely-spaced goods stations. Hockley would continue to have a very large share of the general goods traffic for the south side of the city.

[John M]

Killarney is probably the best example of a passenger station off the main line in the British Isles. The station was originally the terminus of the main line from Mallow and became a terminus when the line was extended to Tralee, trains arriving from and departing for Tralee run into a head shunt clear of the main running road before reversing direction.  

 

Loco hauled trains are still required to perform a reversal when changing direction, though diesel railcar drivers changes ends. Although the track layout is similar to a country branch terminus the Mallow-Tralee line carries heavy passenger traffic. Although most trains are currently worked by  diesel railcars, loco hauled Dublin-Tralee trains regularly loaded to 8-9 coaches.

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by John M

[Metr0Land]

Killarney Oct 2008 with 212 - the gradient is uphill out of the station but note the Tralee line comes in on a higher level still

 

 

[Worsdell forever]

On 09/09/2019 at 09:29, russ p said:

Guisborough in Yorkshire was off the mainline but more of a short branch to it

 

Quite a convoluted construction, Middlesbrough & Guisborough crossed by the Cleveland Railway, the part of the CR beyond Guisborough becoming the mainline along with the M&G before it.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/g/guisborough/

 

Saltburn is similar, the line to Loftus and later Whitby, now Boulby mine branching off a few hundred yards before the station.

[luckymucklebackit]

There was an arrangement at Keith station if two trains had to cross, the Aberdeen to Inverness train would run into the branch platform while the Inverness to Aberdeen train stopped on the main line platform, once clear the Aberdeen to Inverness train would reverse out and continue its journey

 

Jim

Edited September 10, 2019 by luckymucklebackit

[Andy Kirkham]

Another Irish example: Killarney. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killarney_railway_station

 

Trains running from Mallow to Tralee calling at Killarney run into either the main platform or the bay platform then reverse into the headshunt to gain the line to Tralee. Trains from Tralee to Mallow pass the station and reverse in (if travelling towards Mallow).

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, John M said:

Killarney is probably the best example of a passenger station off the main line in the British Isles. The station was originally the terminus of the main line from Mallow and became a terminus when the line was extended to Tralee, trains arriving from and departing for Tralee run into a head shunt clear of the main running road before reversing direction.  

 

Loco hauled trains are still required to perform a reversal when changing direction, though diesel railcar drivers changes ends. Although the track layout is similar to a country branch terminus the Mallow-Tralee line carries heavy passenger traffic. Although most trains are currently worked by  diesel railcars, loco hauled Dublin-Tralee trains regularly loaded to 8-9 coaches.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Andy Kirkham said:

Another Irish example: Killarney. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killarney_railway_station

 

Trains running from Mallow to Tralee calling at Killarney run into either the main platform or the bay platform then reverse into the headshunt to gain the line to Tralee. Trains from Tralee to Mallow pass the station and reverse in (if travelling towards Mallow).

 

I confess it was Killarney I was thinking of when I mentioned Limerick. 

[russ p]

2 hours ago, Worsdell forever said:

 

Quite a convoluted construction, Middlesbrough & Guisborough crossed by the Cleveland Railway, the part of the CR beyond Guisborough becoming the mainline along with the M&G before it.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/g/guisborough/

 

Saltburn is similar, the line to Loftus and later Whitby, now Boulby mine branching off a few hundred yards before the station.

 

 

Going a bit OT it's never been clear to me if the link from the M&G to the Cleveland was put in when the Cleveland to the west closed or if the two worked side by side for a while 

There was a debate on the Cleveland in guisborough on hidden Teesside a while back

[AMJ]

Kilarney as viewed from Google. (below)  I have done it by steam on the international railtour the other year.  GNR(I) 85 from Tralee to Whitehead.  

 

Limerick Junction is interesting.

[John M]

 

One of the oddities at Killarney was that for many years it was not feasible for trains to run-through from Mallow to Tralee without performing a shunt at Killarney as there only was a down trailing crossover between the Killarney & Tralee lines. A facing crossover was installed at some stage in the 1980s to allow through running between the two sections.

 

 

[Zomboid]

Pushing it a bit, wasn't Scarborough operated in that manner for trains on the Whitby line?

[ElectroSoldier]

Its quite normal for a station that has bay platforms.

 

Portsmouth and South sea have exactly that arrangement, but the main running line is elevated compared to the bays.

Hunts cross station in Liverpool has exactly as your diagram shows but with no sidings to the north, there is one to the west though between the running lines.

 

 

[AMJ]

One of the trains on the Far North line in the 1980's loco hauled days used to run from Far North and rather than going into one of the relevant bay in Inverness used to travel past the depot and then reverse into a south facing bay.  Think that the stock then formed a service to the south, can't remember exactly as it's 30 years ago!

[Compound2632]

29 minutes ago, AMJ said:

One of the trains on the Far North line in the 1980's loco hauled days used to run from Far North and rather than going into one of the relevant bay in Inverness used to travel past the depot and then reverse into a south facing bay.  Think that the stock then formed a service to the south, can't remember exactly as it's 30 years ago!

 

I was under the impression that was a long-standing practice. The frontispiece photograph of Tatlow's Highland Locomotives is an very early 20th century view of the south side of the station, captioned as "showing the events leading up to the departure of the 3:50 pm for the south [...] 4-4-0 Small Ben No. 47 Ben a' Bhuird has just arrived with the connecting train from the north, having traversed the Ross Street curve [...] and reversed into the station." Passengers (together with luggage and parcels traffic - consider the porters) making the connection had simply to cross the platform.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Compound2632

[Wickham Green]

On 10/09/2019 at 16:16, AMJ said:

........ Limerick Junction is interesting.

 

I'm afraid that should be in the past tense, Andy .................... they've ruined it by building a down platform - so the main line bit's like any other station ....... the few trains between Limerick and Waterford still have to reverse, of course - but for how much longer ?

[Steamysandy]

On 10/09/2019 at 12:31, Metr0Land said:

Killarney Oct 2008 with 212 - the gradient is uphill out of the station but note the Tralee line comes in on a higher level still

 

 

In 1980 the signalling was a magnificent set of lower quadrant semaphores resplendent in a fluorescent redcolour

Edited September 13, 2019 by Steamysandy

[Nearholmer]

At Killarney, I think the lack of a facing crossover might have been due to fears of a runaway., the headhunt acting as a trap.

 

The gradient towards Tralee is fierce, and carries on like that way past the town. My impression is that the line onward to Tralee was very much built on the cheap, because it seems to follow the ground with relatively light earth/rock work considering the topography.

 

The track layout in the OP is unusual, because it involves all station moves, including running around, fouling the through line, so the through line is likely to be something infrequently used, like a harbour or colliery branch. I recognise the case of Dorchester South, but by golly was that unlikely.

 

Its a potentially good space-saver on a layout, and I originally laid-out one of the stations on mine like that, but the fouling of the through line became a PITA, and I relaid it, with shorter loop, so as to be self-contained from a running-around viewpoint. I get on a lot better with it as it is now, it feels more railway like, even though trains can now only be 3.5 coaches long.

 

A couple of other lines with "depart terminus, then immediately reverse" arrangements were The Schull & Skibereen, and, after colure of its own micro-terminus, the Freshwater, Yarmouth & Newport.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Sol]

This is the original plan with the bottom track becoming a through running track.

 

[runs as required]

I'm not sure these qualify but they always intrigue me:

1. Morecambe Promenade and Heysham travelling from Lancaster's stations - and also Morecambe Euston road from Carnforth
2. The stations in Manchester: LNW Exchange (largely terminus) & L&Y Victoria;   LNW London Rd, (extremely dismal) Mayfield and the Altringham line from London Rd on through Oxford Road
3. York through station and the former Y&NM terminus through the four centred arch in the City walls
4. Whatever fun and games went on in Leeds given Central! and Wellington (both terminals), then Leeds New (through)

dh

 

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by runs as required

[PatB]

I've been aware of Dorchester for some time and have always wondered how operating it, and stations like it, was reconciled with the restrictions on propelling loaded passenger trains. At least, I've always assumed there were/are restrictions on propelling passengers, but maybe I've been labouring under a misconception. I'm aware of autotrains of course, but they're a bit different in that the driver is at the front, even if the loco isn't. 

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, runs as required said:

I'm not sure these qualify but they always intrigue me:

1. Morecambe Promenade and Heysham travelling from Lancaster's stations - and also Morecambe Euston road from Carnforth
2. The stations in Manchester: LNW Exchange (largely terminus) & L&Y Victoria;   LNW London Rd, (extremely dismal) Mayfield and the Altringham line from London Rd on through Oxford Road
3. York through station and the former Y&NM terminus through the four centred arch in the City walls
4. Whatever fun and games went on in Leeds given Central! and Wellington (both terminals), then Leeds New (through)

 

 

1. One of many reasons why the Lancaster - Heysham - Morecambe system was selected for the Midland's experiment in electric traction.

 

4. Expresses reversing at Leeds Wellington ran straight in and went out with a different engine. In Midland days, the London-Bradford and Bristol Bradford trains (or portions) were worked by 0-4-4Ts. There were a very few passenger trains that didn't reverse at Leeds but ran through on the Engine Shed Junction - Holbeck Junction line, which was of course the route for through goods trains.

[runs as required]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

... 4. Expresses reversing at Leeds Wellington ran straight in and went out with a different engine. In Midland days, the London-Bradford and Bristol Bradford trains (or portions) were worked by 0-4-4Ts. There were a very few passenger trains that didn't reverse at Leeds but ran through on the Engine Shed Junction - Holbeck Junction line, which was of course the route for through goods trains.

Thank you for replying with the detail of the 'flat-iron' (?) tanks running the Bradford expresses on down from Leeds.

A couple of times in the early 1960s we joined the Waverley and the Thames Clyde Express at the terminus station in Leeds (once riding around an unforgettably wintry  Dent dale). 

But it is the NW-NE axis (of today's 'Northern Powerhouse' proposal) n its early days I was really wondering about. I've just discovered, from this Wiki page, that Leeds New dates from 1869 (earlier than the name implies) so complicated reversals by NER, LNW and L&Y Liverpool-York trains would have ceased by 1870.

postscript

In one surreal (rather inebriated) late night in the late 1980s the Leeds Conservation officer opened a door with a key and led several of us around an extraordinary Art Deco station he claimed had been forgotten about. Which exactly would that have been?  

[melmerby]

4 hours ago, runs as required said:

In one surreal (rather inebriated) late night in the late 1980s the Leeds Conservation officer opened a door with a key and led several of us around an extraordinary Art Deco station he claimed had been forgotten about. Which exactly would that have been?  

Could that have been the concourse for Wellington?

https://goo.gl/maps/6wiN7wT1XwFgcfPu9

It remained disused when the station was closed but is now the "Shopping Mall" for Leeds Station after being used for various things including car parking.

Edited September 14, 2019 by melmerby

[Andy W]

But was it normally inaccessible? When I lived in Leeds after the concentration of train services on what was effectively Leeds New in the late 1960s, although the modern main concourse was the other side of the railway-owned Queens Hotel block, the Wellington concourse still existed as a passageway from the then low numbered platforms to City Square which anyone could use, and lots did. All the facilities of Wellington had been closed and shuttered up, but the concourse itself remained as effectively a pedestrian tunnel under the Queens Hotel, with occasional glimpses of parcels vans in the old Wellington platforms through grimy part-glazed doors. Of course it wasn't really a tunnel as it was all on one level and that was the same as street level outside. There were odd signs to barbers shop, left luggage etc though these only pointed to locked doors. Now what I never found out was where the ticket office had been. Maybe that was what the conservation officer had access to.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Andy W

[runs as required]

Thanks so much for those two posts. You're right - it must have been this behind the Queens Hotel that we were walked around by torch light; it all makes sense. [edit This Grade II listing must be the follow-up to my colleague Richard Taylor's planned redemption of the LMS Concourse]

 

I've looked up the job we'd just done and Richard Taylor (Leeds Conservation Officer) had been "The Star of the Show". 

It was a tough assignment - we'd been a group of 5 sent to China from York University (just a year after Tianaman Squre) to initiate an exchange programme on 'the economic potential' of  Conserving Historic Cities.  

We faced an impossible task  - whichever historic city we visited with our Chinese colleagues from the Beijing Historic Artefacts Academy, city Mayors were totally against conservation of the existing. They all wanted total renewal (we can rebuild and renew the old better).  Their 'hospitality' was to throw us big 'banquets', challenge us to eat 'difficult' delicacies like bumble bees, drink vast amounts of Chinese spirits and stand up and sing from Chinese karaoke scripts.

 

Richard Taylor turned out to be a leading light of a Leeds amateur Operatic Society;  first of all he showed us all how to appear to drink all the toasts while pouring most into an adjoining plant. Best of all he quickly sussed which of the Karaoke songs actually had English words and gave OTT Pavarotti style performances to huge ovations.

 

A plus side: after learning I was keen on railways, the authorities booked us onto night sleeper trains, many still steam hauled, between the cities

dh

Edited September 14, 2019 by runs as required