Budd 'Silver Princess'

[Fat Controller]

10 minutes ago, daveyb said:

Google and some links have answered most of the questions. It was a 63'6" frame, the bogies were LMS (thanks Bernard TPM) design (though still fairly primitive by Budd Standards) and it lasted until 1966.

 

Pressed Steel became involved in DMU production and later were absorbed into BLMC /BMC /BL along with Metal Box. Had they done much railway work before then?

They built lots of 16t mineral wagons, amongst other types.

[daveyb]

Reading that, Pressed Steel had very close links with Budd. They could have probably been much bigger in railways but their car products kept them busy.

 

When in the BL empire, they were a classic 'must use British and where the workers are, they will stay' type organization. There are pics of Triumph 2000 and 2500 shells being carried on open transporters from PS in Dudley or similar to the assembly plant at Canley. None of them are painted and the weather is typically UK rain. No wonder they rusted! 

 

Now, if Budd had pushed the Stainless idea...

[russ p]

The gangway seems odd, would think that daylight would be visible when coupled to a Pullman gangway,  that's also one finger trapping spring in the top of it

[SRman]

1 hour ago, russ p said:

T...   that's also one finger trapping spring in the top of it

Or, being tall myself, hair-trapping!

[Fenway Park]

CP Portuguese Railways purchased stainless steel coaches and DMUs from Soreframe under licence from Budd. 

One series of electric locos had stainless steel sides. 

 

SNCF also had stainless steel coaching stock as well.

[Oldddudders]

18 minutes ago, Fenway Park said:

 

SNCF also had stainless steel coaching stock as well.

Including Budd EMUs, I think. 

[Pandora]

Manufactured in the USA? Our post-war balance of payments problem, was that the demise of the project?   I like the Art Deco motifs,  and such such luxury in 3rd for class conscious Britiain .  I find the decor and ambience of a Silver Princess very acceptable.  A pity about the bogies,  Gresley or Commonwealth  bogies were superior as BR Mark 1 in service showed.

[BernardTPM]

58 minutes ago, Pandora said:

Manufactured in the USA? Our post-war balance of payments problem, was that the demise of the project?

 

They would have been manufactured in the UK by Pressed Steel if they'd been ordered.

[pete_mcfarlane]

The gangway is very odd, given how the lower half is a standard British Pullman type gangway. 

[Pandora]

49 minutes ago, BernardTPM said:

 

They would have been manufactured in the UK by Pressed Steel if they'd been ordered.

My interest aroused, I did some background reading into the Budd company,  in general the USA had mastered manufacturing techniques above and beyond those of the UK, in the example of Budd, the company had developed advanced  machinery to produce high quality  state of the art welding of metals which  may have been beyond the capabilities of a UK manufacturer. Budd charged a premium for stock manufactured using their advanced welding process,  and  those Budd  products were noted for their strength and durabilty in long service  life as mentioned within other posts.  from a conversation with a retired  Cravens (dmu) engineer, BR had a reputation for buying the cheap products and not the most durable.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Pandora

[Steamport Southport]

8 minutes ago, Pandora said:

My interest aroused, I did some background reading into the Budd company,  in general the USA had mastered manufacturing techniques above and beyond those of the UK, in the example of Budd, the company had developed advanced  machinery to produce high quality  state of the art welding of metals which  may have been beyond the capabilities of a UK manufacturer. Budd charged a premium for stock manufactured using their advanced welding process,  and  those Budd  products were noted for their strength and durabilty in long service  life as mentioned within other posts.  from a conversation with a retired  Cravens (dmu) engineer, BR had a reputation for buying the cheap products and not the most durable.

 

This was pre BR though. Definitely based on LMS practice and not far off the 1938 Coronation Scot coaches which toured America.

 

Could it have been ordered pre war?

 

 

 

Jason

[Clive Mortimore]

2 hours ago, Pandora said:

Manufactured in the USA? Our post-war balance of payments problem, was that the demise of the project?   I like the Art Deco motifs,  and such such luxury in 3rd for class conscious Britiain .  I find the decor and ambience of a Silver Princess very acceptable.  A pity about the bogies,  Gresley or Commonwealth  bogies were superior as BR Mark 1 in service showed.

The bogies under the Silver Princess look more like a LMS type than BR Mk1.

[Wickham Green]

Yes - definitely LMS bogies as stated above ............. presumably those were shipped across from the UK rather than produced locally - but why was no drawgear fitted before export ? : looks like Southern type buffers were added in the UK ( The only LMS experience with retractable buffers was on the wartime royal set - and they were of a drophead type.).

[keefer]

14 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

They built lots of 16t mineral wagons, amongst other types.

Sorry if it has been covered by some of the links but Pressed Steel also built a large number of mk1 stock - off the top of my head, mainly GUV/BG/Catering coaches. I'll have to check Parkin for more details

[BernardTPM]

3 hours ago, Pandora said:

My interest aroused, I did some background reading into the Budd company,  in general the USA had mastered manufacturing techniques above and beyond those of the UK, in the example of Budd, the company had developed advanced  machinery to produce high quality  state of the art welding of metals which  may have been beyond the capabilities of a UK manufacturer. Budd charged a premium for stock manufactured using their advanced welding process,  and  those Budd  products were noted for their strength and durabilty in long service  life as mentioned within other posts.

 

Pressed Steel had strong links with Budd - see link in my earlier post.

[dibber25]

I'm pretty certain it was covered in Model Railway Constructor - possibly in one of the Annuals - during the 1980s. Possibly with a drawing of sorts, too. Canada has numerous Budd-built vehicles still in service including the cars which form the thrice-weekly trans-Continental 'Canadian'. VIA Rail also bought in secondhand stainless steel cars from the USA. It is the age of all this stock (1950s-built) that gives Canada the reputation of having the oldest trains of any western nation. VIA Rail's newest stock is the Mk4-derived 'Renaissance' stock which is ex-Nightstar stock. The 'Ren' stock and the lightweight LRC cars are scheduled to be withdrawn before the Budd stainless stock, for which no replacements  are yet on order. Whilst the Budd stainless cars are undoubtedly strong and durable, the repeated revamps over the years have left the exteriors looking very patchwork with the plated-over windows very obvious. The last one I rode in (a 'Manor' class sleeping car) was in such bad shape that it helped to put me off riding the 'Canadian' again (wheel flats, loose and banging under frame equipment, very poor riding of the Commonwealth bogies). (CJL)

 

[Steamport Southport]

11 hours ago, dibber25 said:

I'm pretty certain it was covered in Model Railway Constructor - possibly in one of the Annuals - during the 1980s. Possibly with a drawing of sorts, too. Canada has numerous Budd-built vehicles still in service including the cars which form the thrice-weekly trans-Continental 'Canadian'. VIA Rail also bought in secondhand stainless steel cars from the USA. It is the age of all this stock (1950s-built) that gives Canada the reputation of having the oldest trains of any western nation. VIA Rail's newest stock is the Mk4-derived 'Renaissance' stock which is ex-Nightstar stock. The 'Ren' stock and the lightweight LRC cars are scheduled to be withdrawn before the Budd stainless stock, for which no replacements  are yet on order. Whilst the Budd stainless cars are undoubtedly strong and durable, the repeated revamps over the years have left the exteriors looking very patchwork with the plated-over windows very obvious. The last one I rode in (a 'Manor' class sleeping car) was in such bad shape that it helped to put me off riding the 'Canadian' again (wheel flats, loose and banging under frame equipment, very poor riding of the Commonwealth bogies). (CJL)

 

 

I think it was featured in both MRC and RM, but I also recall an article in Scale Trains as well.

 

 

 

Jason

[69843]

I do apologise for the quietness in regards to this thread. A few things have gotten in the way of coming back for a proper reply.

The gentlemen who provided the photographs was appreciative of the kind words, and also passes on thanks for the information and photos as rebuilt. He was unaware of what had happened to the car, but had heard of the rebuilding.

In regards to drawings of the car, I shall hunt for a copy of whichever issue/annual of Model Railway Constructor that you mention Chris, as well as hunt for the Railway Modeller and possibly Scale Trains articles. I will also have to grab a copy of December 2007s Backtrack to see that article. I am very keen on putting together a couple of models of this car (via 3D printing) in the 3 main forms, so anything in the way of solid, reliable information is good. 

A quote from an old thread about the car indicated some possible LMS drawings (though I could be misreading this). Would anybody know where to get a hold of the following?
"The Budd Silver Princess appeared in the LMS diagram book on page 59 as Diagram 2186, also on page 59 A as diagram 2190, the latter was the smooth sided rebuilt version. "