H & M Clipper help required

[PatB]

From memory of the pricing I've seen, the Powermaster was a lot more expensive than the resistance mat units. Very much a premium product. 

 

Fast forward to the present day, whilst I can see a use for the variable transformer types, given that a basic Darlington pair controller can be built for pennies and, powered by a surplus wallwart, will outperform anything resistance based in most applications, I can't imagine actually spending money on such a beast. 

 

I do, however, harbour some ambition to build one, as described in The Model Railway Encyclopedia, but that's more an exercise in historical research rather than an effort to produce something useable. 

[DCB]

57 minutes ago, PatB said:

From memory of the pricing I've seen, the Powermaster was a lot more expensive than the resistance mat units. Very much a premium product. 

 

Fast forward to the present day, whilst I can see a use for the variable transformer types, given that a basic Darlington pair controller can be built for pennies and, powered by a surplus wallwart, will outperform anything resistance based in most applications, I can't imagine actually spending money on such a beast. 

 

I do, however, harbour some ambition to build one, as described in The Model Railway Encyclopedia, but that's more an exercise in historical research rather than an effort to produce something useable. 

 

The variable transformer, whether H&M which I think were Autotransformers now banned, or electronic like Morleys have the big advantage over resistance and some feedback controllers that they will allow disparate locos to double head or bank. There are a few oddballs such as Hornby 42XX and Bachmann Std 5 which need excessive voltage for decent top speeds which can't doublehead "normal" locos, like Hornby 61XX or Black 5 but most combinations work, 1950s H/D Castle and 2000s Bachmann Hall or 1970s Mainline Manor being some which work well.  Drawback is limited arc of control knob movement which puts delicacy of touch at a premium compared to feedback and other reversing switch rather than centre off controllers.  I don't use resistance controllers, I try to avoid resistors of all descriptions, and my main testing controller has 11 steps of diode drop giving from about 3 volts to around 15. First notch is handy for testing LEDs.  Paycraft used this diode drop to make a very cheap and nasty controller which performed much better than Hornby, Triang or H&M Duettes and at a fraction of the price.

[PatB]

Sorry. Rereading my post shows I worded it poorly. I intended to say that I wouldn't spend money on a resistance controller. A variable transformer type may be worth paying for in certain cases such as those you describe. 

 

Interesting bit of information on the Playcraft controller. I've sometimes wondered why nobody did that, and now I find that somebody did. 

[kevinlms]

3 hours ago, PatB said:

From memory of the pricing I've seen, the Powermaster was a lot more expensive than the resistance mat units. Very much a premium product. 

 

Fast forward to the present day, whilst I can see a use for the variable transformer types, given that a basic Darlington pair controller can be built for pennies and, powered by a surplus wallwart, will outperform anything resistance based in most applications, I can't imagine actually spending money on such a beast. 

 

I do, however, harbour some ambition to build one, as described in The Model Railway Encyclopedia, but that's more an exercise in historical research rather than an effort to produce something useable. 

In 1958 the Powermaster was extensively advertised at 84/- (also RRP by H&M), so yes rather expensive. I can't find a price for the Duette of that time. A couple of ads just say H&M controller, without giving the model - so useless for comparison.. There was also Kirdon, Ward & Bradshaw advertising specialist controllers. As well as the big train manufacturers of the time - Tri-ang, Hornby & Trix.

[Oldddudders]

I think the included circuit switches on the Powermaster gave it an aura of being a total control unit. The Duette was just two controllers in one casing. Many layouts, then and now, simply don't need a second throttle, but do need section switching. 

[kevinlms]

55 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I think the included circuit switches on the Powermaster gave it an aura of being a total control unit. The Duette was just two controllers in one casing. Many layouts, then and now, simply don't need a second throttle, but do need section switching. 

If you ran out, there was an additional module, consisting of another 6. Also a 'flash' version for point motors. Both types were available individually.

[Sol]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

......... Many layouts, then and now, simply don't need a second throttle, but do need section switching. 

 

My layout normally uses 5 controllers at the same time as that is how many are people operating on it & the other  5 layouts I am involved are also 4 to 7 controllers/operators all at the same time.

[Pacific231G]

2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

If you ran out, there was an additional module, consisting of another 6. Also a 'flash' version for point motors. Both types were available individually.

I have one of those section switch modules  (though I got rid of my H&M controller long ago and my Kirdon Major ever longer ago); I might even find a use for it someday.

 

The Powermaster was introduced by H&M in September 1957 and heavily advertised at four guineas i.e. 84'- (postage 2/6 extra) until well into 1958.

 

I have RM for that year and, as well as H&M's two page advert and immediately before it, the September edition included  a full  article introducing it. This article incorporated "plan of the month" in the form of a couple of point to point layouts with the six feeds from the Powermaster and common returns marked. Cyril Freezer  was obviously quite impressed by this controller, which he said they'd tested extensively on their own layouts both at home and at work, and the variable transformer  did work well. They'd not been able to test the built in section switches as their layouts were already fully sectioned but he obviously saw that, for modellers not well versed in layout wiring, it would cut out several steps of the process. The obvious downside of this would have been that, if one of the section switches failed or simply became dirty the whole unit might be rendered useless as there would be no way of getting at the circuit selectors inside the riveted case to fix them. Looking at my H&M section switch module which appears to use the same switches, I think they would have been vulnerable to dirt and corrosion. 

 

Rather curiously, Freezer's main plan - for a terminus to terminus L wih an intermediate non passing station- was supposed to have two "cabs" one at each terminus but the whole thing only used six section switches marked 1-6. 

 

The other oddity was in the H&M advert that advertised the uses of the "full-volts boost button" as  including  freeing difficult motors, overcoming dirty contacts  and reversing A.C./D.C. motors. The output didn't include voltage controlled AC so it clearly couldn't reverse A.C. motors such as Märklin's but were there still non permanent magnet DC motors in use at that time? I did wonder whether H&M were possibly considering an AC version for Märklin users- presumably the advantages of a variable transformer would have been just as relevant.

 

FWIW my own policy on electrical equipment- I use mains lighting equipment for filming- is that if it's not worth the modest cost of getting it PAT tested it's not worth keeping, There may be instances where you still need to use obsolete equipment- the reel to reel tape recorder mentioned before for example- but at least use it with an RCD socket; they're very cheap though be aware that while they may protect you from say a chassis or a low voltage output going live mains they won't protect you  from becoming a load in a live to neutral circuit.

Despite constant nonsense about "Elf n Safety" gone mad (usually not based on anything actually said or done by the HSE), H&S isn't about not taking any risks, it's about understanding and assessing risks and then minimising them.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Pacific231G

[Colin_McLeod]

On 14/09/2019 at 00:47, Emmo said:

Jeez, all I asked for was a photograph! So far I have had people telling me what I should use instead, how dangerous H & M units are, how great and safe H & M units are, and now, a physics lesson and a case report on a 21 year old student!! But alas, still no photo of the damn thing! You will all be pleased to know I have given it to a friend to use the case for something else. This topic is now closed.

 

You have my sympathy.

 

Unfortunately this happens quite often on RMweb. Instead of answering the direct question people give alternatives.

 

Person seeking directions: "Excuse me. Can you give me directions to the airport?"

 

RMwebber: "You would be better going by train. The railway station is first right and second left"

 

Person seeking directions: "I need the airport as I am going to meet my Mother whose flight is landing there in an hour"

 

RMwebber: " She would have been better coming here by train"

 

2nd RMwebber: "Psst would you like a picture of the internal wiring of an H&M clipper?" 

[Emmo]

On 14/09/2019 at 11:43, RedgateModels said:

Here you go, hope this helps

 

 

 

My thanks go out to reigate Models for these photographs. That was all I wanted in the first place! Unfortunately they are too late as I have now given the unit away being fed up with all the 'Post Drifts' as it is called. Incidentally I am not a moderator under a different guise, so the deleted posts were not done by me! These units are perfectly safe I have been told, I even saw one in use at an exhibition recently who mostly insist on PAT testing.

[mossdp]

Were there are any more variable Transformer controllers other than the Safety Minor and Powermaster?  I do not think there were any more than these two from H and M but were there some from other manufacturers that people know from seeing the specifications or from seeing the insides to  know for sure. I think the vast majority of old controllers were variable resistance types.

[melmerby]

What actually are these varaible transformers?

Does anyone have a picture?

 

My mind keeps seeing a Variac which is a variable auto-transformer and not what you would want in model railway equipment

 

EDIT

I've Found one:

Edited September 21, 2019 by melmerby

[Grovenor]

Quote

The other oddity was in the H&M advert that advertised the uses of the "full-volts boost button" as  including  freeing difficult motors, overcoming dirty contacts  and reversing A.C./D.C. motors. The output didn't include voltage controlled AC so it clearly couldn't reverse A.C. motors such as Märklin's but were there still non permanent magnet DC motors in use at that time? I did wonder whether H&M were possibly considering an AC version for Märklin users- presumably the advantages of a variable transformer would have been just as relevant.

The Maerklin motors of the time were universal , as were Trix Twin, they would work perfectly well on DC although I rather doubt the H&M boost button would operate the reverser reliably, that needed about 20V. The best solution to running them on DC was to replace the reversing relay with a pair of diodes then it would reverse on polarity as normal DC. (For Trix Twin you needed 4 diodes in a bridge).

Rgds

[Grovenor]

Quote

What actually are these varaible transformers?

As already discussed above, they were not autotransformers, but had a conventional primary winding for the mains and an isolated secondary winding. One side of the secondary was exposed and power taken off by a wiper. The arc of the wiper was arranged so that it pulled off 0V at the centre of travel and maximum volts at either end. there was also a reversing swith which operated at the centre of travel so that the control was a centre off knob as usual for H&M.

Regards

[PatB]

10 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

I have one of those section switch modules  (though I got rid of my H&M controller long ago and my Kirdon Major ever longer ago); I might even find a use for it someday.

 

The Powermaster was introduced by H&M in September 1957 and heavily advertised at four guineas i.e. 84'- (postage 2/6 extra) until well into 1958.

 

I have RM for that year and, as well as H&M's two page advert and immediately before it, the September edition included  a full  article introducing it. This article incorporated "plan of the month" in the form of a couple of point to point layouts with the six feeds from the Powermaster and common returns marked. Cyril Freezer  was obviously quite impressed by this controller, which he said they'd tested extensively on their own layouts both at home and at work, and the variable transformer  did work well. They'd not been able to test the built in section switches as their layouts were already fully sectioned but he obviously saw that, for modellers not well versed in layout wiring, it would cut out several steps of the process. The obvious downside of this would have been that, if one of the section switches failed or simply became dirty the whole unit might be rendered useless as there would be no way of getting at the circuit selectors inside the riveted case to fix them. Looking at my H&M section switch module which appears to use the same switches, I think they would have been vulnerable to dirt and corrosion. 

 

Rather curiously, Freezer's main plan - for a terminus to terminus L wih an intermediate non passing station- was supposed to have two "cabs" one at each terminus but the whole thing only used six section switches marked 1-6. 

 

The other oddity was in the H&M advert that advertised the uses of the "full-volts boost button" as  including  freeing difficult motors, overcoming dirty contacts  and reversing A.C./D.C. motors. The output didn't include voltage controlled AC so it clearly couldn't reverse A.C. motors such as Märklin's but were there still non permanent magnet DC motors in use at that time? I did wonder whether H&M were possibly considering an AC version for Märklin users- presumably the advantages of a variable transformer would have been just as relevant.

 

We're the early Powermaster riveted though? Dad had a 1960s vintage Duette which was screwed together with, IIRC, small self tappers, and which showed no sign of ever having had anything else. 

 

I'm not surprised that CJF was impressed with the PM though, given that, at the time, the preferred choice for the discerning modeller seemed to be a concoction of government surplus bits and pieces from the likes of Proops. 

 

Whilst I have no direct experience of Marklin or TTR motors, I've started playing with Lionel stuff recently, which is also nominally AC, and have found the big, wound-field motors to run beautifully smoothly on the DC provided by a universal laptop "brick". Experiment has shown the electro-mechanical reverser (I assume similar in principal to those used by the German firms) to click around reliably on 15V, and quite reasonably on 12V. Gets a bit feeble and indecisive at 9V though :). I'd have thought that full output from a Powermaster would be a bit over the nominal 12V so I'd have thought it would have no trouble with the, presumably, smaller units used in H0. 

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, PatB said:

We're the early Powermaster riveted though? Dad had a 1960s vintage Duette which was screwed together with, IIRC, small self tappers, and which showed no sign of ever having had anything else. 

 

I'm not surprised that CJF was impressed with the PM though, given that, at the time, the preferred choice for the discerning modeller seemed to be a concoction of government surplus bits and pieces from the likes of Proops. 

 

Whilst I have no direct experience of Marklin or TTR motors, I've started playing with Lionel stuff recently, which is also nominally AC, and have found the big, wound-field motors to run beautifully smoothly on the DC provided by a universal laptop "brick". Experiment has shown the electro-mechanical reverser (I assume similar in principal to those used by the German firms) to click around reliably on 15V, and quite reasonably on 12V. Gets a bit feeble and indecisive at 9V though :). I'd have thought that full output from a Powermaster would be a bit over the nominal 12V so I'd have thought it would have no trouble with the, presumably, smaller units used in H0. 

The 1957 adverts clearly show them with riveted cases. 

According to the late John Charman and others, WW2 RAF bomb release panels were the common source of section switches. Government surplus switchgear did have the great virtue of being designed to work reliably in far worse conditions than even the worst  model railway exhibiton venue.              

Edited September 21, 2019 by Pacific231G

[Dave John]

The pic shown by Melmerby is of a transformer secondary where the number of turns and therefore the AC voltage before rectification is varied by a wiper . Oddly sewing machines had a similar device operated by a foot pedal. 

 

It is not actually a Variac , in which the mechanical relationship between the primary and secondary determines the output voltage. 

 

A true autotransformer has only one winding, usually tapped, to step up or down an AC voltage as required. Used in distribution networks but rarely the low voltage side of the mains. 

 

Anyway , a Variac . If you think thats going anywhere near my models think again. 

 

 

 

 

275 V at 10 A . 

 

I bought it for a job about 30 years ago, I had to show that some marine  control panels I built would work on 160 to 260 V ac . If anyone has a use for it then shout. It weighs a ton though ..... 

 

[AndyID]

19 hours ago, kevinlms said:

If you ran out, there was an additional module, consisting of another 6. Also a 'flash' version for point motors. Both types were available individually.

 

I still have one. Slightly beaten up but it still works.

 

 

 

 

 

[AndyID]

16 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

You have my sympathy.

 

Unfortunately this happens quite often on RMweb. Instead of answering the direct question people give alternatives.

 

Person seeking directions: "Excuse me. Can you give me directions to the airport?"

 

RMwebber: "You would be better going by train. The railway station is first right and second left"

 

Person seeking directions: "I need the airport as I am going to meet my Mother whose flight is landing there in an hour"

 

RMwebber: " She would have been better coming here by train"

 

2nd RMwebber: "Psst would you like a picture of the internal wiring of an H&M clipper?" 

 

You do realize we only do it to wind you up? :)

[DCB]

Just to make the point that I have some of these oldies actually in everyday use.  The Powermaster is a good solid piece of kit but it is a bit short of volts and limits some locos to a scale 50 mph max. Now I like my expresses to come through the dip at the junction at well over 80 so its a bit lame and the Powermaster is linked to the loco shed and only occasionally powers a train on the main line.  The variwave seems a waste of time, I never use anything but 1/2 or full, but I suppose you could bring up the second half wave progressively to avoid the jerk as you change from 1/2 to full wave.   The boost button is very useful with old triang etc mechs which don't like starting, you just have to judge the controller setting for slow speed and jab the boost and the (steam)  train jerks into motion very realistically.  With near constant volts for any given knob position the amps rises with the load on the locos and gives very good speed stability.  The voltage for a given knob position is much the same whether there are 3 locos  or no locos on the track.   The innards just have a spindle disappearing into the depths of the transformer so its not worth winkling it out and taking the case off to get a photo effectively showing nothing.

The Safety Minor is in use with an On Track as the main line controllers. There is a bit of a gap in the 0-3volt range unlike modern Voltage control units so you can't test LEDs with it.  It is slower than the OnTrack but has the half wave necessary to get old worm drive mechs to run nicely down hill . Iike the Powermaster it gives excellent control when double heading or banking or both.

The Duette has no problems sped wise , 21 volts output off load but it's a resistor controller and the speed control is dire, old locos nearly stall uphill and hurtle back down at crazy speeds.  It has to be fiddled with constantly to keep trains at any reasonable speed so it has  relegated to testing with a pair of crocodile clips rather than being in reguar use.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2019 by DavidCBroad

[Porkscratching]

Nice to see others sensibly using decent old kit ..without bleating on about how we're all going to die..! 

[melmerby]

8 hours ago, Dave John said:

The pic shown by Melmerby is of a transformer secondary where the number of turns and therefore the AC voltage before rectification is varied by a wiper . Oddly sewing machines had a similar device operated by a foot pedal. 

 

It is not actually a Variac , in which the mechanical relationship between the primary and secondary determines the output voltage. 

 

A true autotransformer has only one winding, usually tapped, to step up or down an AC voltage as required. Used in distribution networks but rarely the low voltage side of the mains. 

 

Anyway , a Variac . If you think thats going anywhere near my models think again. 

 

 

 

 

275 V at 10 A . 

 

I bought it for a job about 30 years ago, I had to show that some marine  control panels I built would work on 160 to 260 V ac . If anyone has a use for it then shout. It weighs a ton though ..... 

 

 

I used to have an 8A open frame* one some years ago but gave it away because I had no further use for it.

Mine wouldn't have fitted in that case, which looks a bit small for a 10A one.

I do still have a 500VA 1:1 isolating transformer though, which I used with it to get a safe variable 2A AC supply

 

*all the secondary connections were brass terminal posts, with fixed taps at (IIRC) 110v, 220, 240 & 275 as well as the variable output from the wiper.

In those days you were considered responsible enough to use such exposed equipment!

[RLWP]

55 minutes ago, Porkscratching said:

Nice to see others sensibly using decent old kit ..without bleating on about how we're all going to die..! 

 

We are, you know...

[maico]

The OP could of got photos required searching on google images....!

Edited September 22, 2019 by maico

[Porkscratching]

17 minutes ago, RLWP said:

 

We are, you know...

Probably not as a result of playing with our train sets tho...! 

I do seem to recall however they were running model railways back in the 30s or something, using full mains voltage on the track..I believe they gave up on that idea after a few kids got electrocuted..!