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H & M Clipper help required


Emmo
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I've had long arguments with the powers that be (our tests were usually arranged by someone in  HR) that there is no legal requirement for the type of "PAT testing" being described here. It's just a**e covering, and a tick box for management to demonstrate "Health and Safety compliance". Any number of the technicians or engineers on site could have satisfied the regulations, done a much better job and actually understood what they were doing. I bet even the "Trolley Dolly" could have done it with a few minutes training.

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1 hour ago, Crosland said:

I've had long arguments with the powers that be (our tests were usually arranged by someone in  HR) that there is no legal requirement for the type of "PAT testing" being described here. It's just a**e covering, and a tick box for management to demonstrate "Health and Safety compliance". Any number of the technicians or engineers on site could have satisfied the regulations, done a much better job and actually understood what they were doing. I bet even the "Trolley Dolly" could have done it with a few minutes training.

All our PATs were done by us, the people that used/serviced the equipment that was being tested as well as repairs and hence PATs to the testers themselves.

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32 minutes ago, melmerby said:

All our PATs were done by us, the people that used/serviced the equipment that was being tested as well as repairs and hence PATs to the testers themselves.

 

 

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? ... or who PAT Tests the PAT Testers? 

 

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4 hours ago, Crosland said:

 

As a cash strapped teenager, one of my Model railway power supplies WAS a car battery charger, LOL!

 

I used my Tri-ang power unit (one of the big grey boxes) to charge my car battery!

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7 hours ago, Crosland said:

 

As a cash strapped teenager, one of my Model railway power supplies WAS a car battery charger, LOL!

My first was one of those Triang thingies that held three bell batteries. The batteries didn't last long, much to the chagrin of my parents who had to buy them!

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Battery supplies are quite complicated in themselves.

 

IIRC initially one had two choices Tri-ang had a large black box* which held two large 6V lantern batteries (I forget the type numbers - the one with the large spring on the top) and Dublo suggested three 4.5V bell batteries which you had to wire up yourself to the standard 'black box' controller. (At the time, I wondered how 13.5 volts could safely be applied to a 12 volt motor, but I suppose it's not a large overload and didn't stay that high for long anyway. (They claimed 9 hours use - at 9 or 10 shillings a go I never tried! That would have bought a couple of wagons or a coach....

Trix never claimed their AC locomotives would run from a battery AFAIK. Having to supply the field winding as well would have reduced the battery life considerably.

 

Later Dublo produced a neat battery controller but you still had to connect it yourself. Later still controllers that sat on top of the batteries appeared . With their DC motors, Trix brought out a 6v system that used a single bell battery or a transformer with two terminals on the top. Its mains connection was a piece of flimsy two core flex (of the type that is reserved for low voltage today!)

I have a Rivarossi set which has  a plastic box for a 4.5 volt torch battery (the type with two brass tongues on one end). It has an early version of the B & O C16 0-4-0ST* (she now has new cylinders as the original block fell apart through zinc pest), PRR flat car and gondola and a CNJ 'bobber' caboose. A good selection! but a reasonable start, though the track is rather rubbish (similar to Trix fibre but 2 rail IIRC - it hasn't been out of the box for years)

* There are several versions of this beastie 

http://www.rivarossi-memory.it/ENGLISH_VERSION/Riva_American_Locos/Riva_Dockside_Eng.htm

 

http://www.rivarossi-memory.it/Riva_Loco_Americane/Dockside/Dockside_Evoluzione_2.htm 

 

I have two in H0 - the original from the set has connecting and piston rods as one piece and on the second they are jointed as here.

 

   (More detail in the second link (and the pictures actually appear), but a knowledge of Italian helps (mine is similar to the first one which also suffers from the rot*   

 

I also have an N scale tender version.... (I must like them1)

 

You can still get the lantern batteries, but I haven't seen the bell batteries for years. That you can get a complete door chime today for the cost of the battery perhaps explains it.

 

 

Edited by Il Grifone
Non functional links due to the software insisting in joining them up
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54 minutes ago, Il Grifone said:

You can still get the lantern batteries, but I haven't seen the bell batteries for years. That you can get a complete door chime today for the cost of the battery perhaps explains it.

 

Dragging things even more off-topic, on the subject of 'batteries I haven't seen for a while'...

 

Does anyone remember ignition batteries? They were, if I remember correctly, only 1.5V, but could deliver a high current. They were huge - about 6" long. When I was a kid I used to have a hot-wire polystyrene cutter which used one of these for power - it screwed into the bottom of the cutter and acted not only as the power source, but as the handle too. 

 

after a bit of googling, I found they are still available, sold for powering vintage equipment and originally designated No.6 or R40 for the zinc-carbon version, the modern alkaline replacements are LR40.

 

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13 hours ago, melmerby said:

My first was one of those Triang thingies that held three bell batteries. The batteries didn't last long, much to the chagrin of my parents who had to buy them!

 

My father used to regularly come home from work with a brown paper bag full of batteries. They would change them in the test equipment at regular intervals, rather than when they were flat, and allow employees to help themselves. They still had plenty of charge to keep my Lego trainset running (the original one with the batteries in the tender). Happy days!

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11 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I had oneof these for speed control:

 

RT42NewLatestB.jpg

 

and one of these to power it :)

 

image.png.e7e0862145847135f97245019c69070b.png

 

Also powered my Scalextric, holding down the overload cutout button made the stray strands from the collectors smoke so I knew where the sort circuit was LOL

Edited by RedgateModels
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1 hour ago, Crosland said:

 

Out of stock, but did you mean Ever Ready 126 https://www.smallbattery.company.org.uk/sbc_a6570.htm ?

 

 

 

That's the one! The Price is  a trifle OTT however. Granted it's alkaline rather than zinc-carbon, but...

 

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

This is the Triang battery controller:

http://www.tri-ang.co.uk/OONew/power6.htm

powerP40.jpg

 

 

3 position switch On-Off-On (no incremental settings!)

I had oneof these for speed control:

 

RT42NewLatestB.jpg

 

That's the later device. Dublo had one more or less the same, which allowed 3 speeds by selecting one, two, or all three batteries. The instructions make no mention of swopping the batteries around to even out the discharge, but I suppose they thought this would be obvious to a 'Meccano Boy'.

The thing I was referring too is this:-

  https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.Hornby.com%2Fmedia%2Ftinymce_upload%2FJennings_6_x_4_Power_Unit.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.Hornby.com%2Fuk-en%2Fforum%2Fhornby-battery-controller%2F%3Fp%3D2%2F&tbnid=jl7UcnZbfFJRJM&vet=12ahUKEwj1vs7X6aXlAhUGwIUKHfEJAYUQMygAegUIARDMAQ..i&docid=nxdMpo0n-72kKM&w=2560&h=1920&q=Tri-ang battery box&client=firefox-b-d&ved=2ahUKEwj1vs7X6aXlAhUGwIUKHfEJAYUQMygAegUIARDMAQ 

 

Most would have been made out of acetate and thus will have ended up in the bin. This example must be one of the last made of polystyrene.

 

From something that calls itself a Hornby Forum, but talks about Tri-ang :)  https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/forum/post/view/topic_id/8730/?p=1

 

(I thought the discussion about "more rectangular" was referring to the curviness of an acetate example! :)

Holding two square section batteries, it has to be rectangular. In side view it was roughly square. The contact problems mentioned would suggest a certain degree of warping, especially when a later post claims not to having problems powering a black 0-4-0. These didn't appear until well into the polystyrene era.)

 

There's also a picture of the Dublo controller. The 3 speed settings can easily be seen.

 

Edited by Il Grifone
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OT but I've just seen they are starting a Rivarossi Club.  https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/rivarossi-club

 

Of course 'real' Rivarossi is 1:80, not today's 1:87 like everyone else! (American models excepted of course. - They were clever enough to make products for that market in the scale everyone uses (well almost everyone - they made N and 0 as well though). It's a pity they didn't do the same for the British market! - the Italian market really only had them or Lima - no contest! - but from what I saw, no-one noticed the different scales anyway.)

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1 hour ago, Il Grifone said:

From something that calls itself a Hornby Forum, but talks about Tri-ang :)  https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/forum/post/view/topic_id/8730/?p=1

 

As the current Hornby is the direct lineal decendent of Triang and has little to do with Meccano's Hornby I don't see what's wrong with that.

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53 minutes ago, Il Grifone said:

OT but I've just seen they are starting a Rivarossi Club.  https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/rivarossi-club

 

Of course 'real' Rivarossi is 1:80, not today's 1:87 like everyone else! (American models excepted of course. - They were clever enough to make products for that market in the scale everyone uses (well almost everyone - they made N and 0 as well though). It's a pity they didn't do the same for the British market! - the Italian market really only had them or Lima - no contest! - but from what I saw, no-one noticed the different scales anyway.)

What's this then:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/401895924411?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=401895924411&targetid=595627774953&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=1006524&poi=&campaignid=6619152140&mkgroupid=84510982008&rlsatarget=pla-595627774953&abcId=1140496&merchantid=113737699&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIwuKN6f2l5QIVAVXTCh1hyA5WEAQYAyABEgJ5kvD_BwE

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39 minutes ago, melmerby said:

 

That's what I meant, it's 1:80 scale not 1:76 and didn't sell as well as it deserved. (Trix suffered from the same mistake. By the time they corrected it, it was too late.) Rivarossi U.S. stock is 1:87 and sold very well. I believe this part of the empire was sold (to AHM? ) and is still available.

 

My earlier remark was supposed to be a joke to the effect that today's Hornby is Tri-ang. Obviously it failed miserably!

 

Further to earlier comments on the lethal mains voltage trains, (I was in Italy at the time and missed them!), I understand that the dropper lamp was supposed to be a carbon filament bulb (the 'antique' stringy things that are fashionable at the moment - LEDs today of course). I understand these have an opposite characteristic to tungsten filaments and are high resistance when cold.  Potentially (no pun intended) just as deadly of course, but at least the voltage is kept lower* (as long as there's a locomotive on the track). If the dropper was supposed to be a baretter, I would have thought Meccano would have supplied it. They were never really available over the counter, being designed specifically for a particular piece of apparatus and intended to stabilise current so not a lot of use for a train. . https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=101812 

*or more accurately the source impedance is higher.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong about these lethal toys!  I don't own one and would never run it if I did!

 

Edited by Il Grifone
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4 hours ago, AndyID said:

Battery box in here

 

http://online.fliphtml5.com/wobp/edku/#p=1

 

We had a P1 transformer/rectifier. Not something you'd want to drop on your foot.

 

Yep, There's one in my R0 trainset...

Its not warped, neither have the coaches or the loco (as of last inspection).  I've also got one of the all black variable speed controllers too, better than the on/off forward/reverse of the unadorned battery box!

 

The  really odd thing about my R0 set is that its got a serial number in the mid 600s and the "instruction manual" is pasted in the box lid...

 

As for the Tri-ang P.40 battery controller the least said the better.  Trains chewed up the batteries so rapidly that it was completely uneconomical.  My uncle bought me a trainset with a P.40 for Christmas one year and thoughtfully included two sets of batteries.  It didn't even last until the New Year!

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31 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

 

As for the Tri-ang P.40 battery controller the least said the better.  Trains chewed up the batteries so rapidly that it was completely uneconomical.  My uncle bought me a trainset with a P.40 for Christmas one year and thoughtfully included two sets of batteries.  It didn't even last until the New Year!

Mine didn't last long until a transformer and rectifier replaced it. A few sets of batteries would cover the cost!

I can't rember the makes but the transformer was in a dark grey gunmetal finish case with two turn-screw connections on top, the rectifier (H&M?) was in a flat rectangular case with screw terminals on top.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            ^^^

Look! back on topic, I mentioned H&M!:D

Edited by melmerby
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H & M used to do a rectifier in a metal box IIRC. The price of 6/6d comes to mind. This seems a lot, but you could spend 5/- just for the rectifier. Today they are rather cheaper (and more robust and don't need fins to cool them). Four of these and there you are. 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-x-1N5408-Diode-Rectifier-3A-1000V-1st-CLASS-POST/121493725507?hash=item1c49972143:g:sEYAAOSwZjJU3SRr

 

Other component options are available and, if you are not in a hurry, they are even cheaper from the Far East.

 

(No connection with the supplier, it's just the first to come up on a quick search.)

 

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1 hour ago, Il Grifone said:

H & M used to do a rectifier in a metal box IIRC. The price of 6/6d comes to mind. This seems a lot, but you could spend 5/- just for the rectifier. Today they are rather cheaper (and more robust and don't need fins to cool them). Four of these and there you are. 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-x-1N5408-Diode-Rectifier-3A-1000V-1st-CLASS-POST/121493725507?hash=item1c49972143:g:sEYAAOSwZjJU3SRr

 

Other component options are available and, if you are not in a hurry, they are even cheaper from the Far East.

 

(No connection with the supplier, it's just the first to come up on a quick search.)

 

 

That listing is for 10 diodes!

Edited by smokebox
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