Last of the 'Birds'

[steve howe]

I am building a 'Bird' class 4-4-0 in 4mm 00 gauge for to run on our 1950's era Club layout. It will probably be 'Skylark' or 'Seagull' as these were the last to be withdrawn in 1951. I would like to know what livery they would have carried by then? I am assuming unlined British Railways black, and which version of the lion crest would be used, but if anyone can confirm that I would appreciate it.

 

Steve

[melmerby]

Would many even have been repainted?

RCTS suggests the last ones spent most of their last few years stored out of service in their home sheds or at the stock shed at Swindon.

Although it does mention Seagull as one of those getting unlined black and a smokebox number plate, (but not Skylark)

[Steamport Southport]

I would assume the majority of the late survivors would be unlined black by 1950. Either BR or GWR 1943 black. More likely the latter.

 

I can't find a prototype picture on Google, but I think this is correct.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/54551-3453-seagull/

 

 

 

Jason

[Miss Prism]

I doubt they ever got a BR repaint.

3453 Seagull ended in filth livery with a Churchward 3500g tender, not really possible to tell the underlying livery:
 

(image courtesy of Ozzyo, previously of this parish)

 

See also http://www.miac.org.uk/images/3454.jpg

 

3454 Skylark ended up with a Collett 3000g tender, and still had G W R on its tender in June 1951, revealed only after it had been cleaned up for an SLS railtour:
https://railway-photography.smugmug.com/GWRSteam-1/Dean-Locomotives/Dean-440-locomotives/GWR-3300-Bulldog-Bird-Class/i-575NFhs/A

 

(or maybe the tender for the railtour was something they found with G W R on it)

 

3451 Pelican, also one of the last survivors, did get a post-WWII pre-nationalisation repaint in green, but whether it ever saw more paint is another question. Not sure what tender it ended up with.
 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Miss Prism

[The Johnster]

I concur; GW post 1945 unlined green with initials to withdrawal.  The photo of Seagull shows a BR smokebox number but no shed code; Skylark has one and I assume a smokebox numberplate as well.  Numberplates appear to be black backed, not red, and buffer beam numbers have either gone or are buried under the muck. 

[Miss Prism]

(I've asked Andy to merge duplicate threads.)

 

[steve howe]

Very helpful, thanks guys. Coincidentally only hours after making my post I came across this clip from Huntley Archives which shows Skylark backing on to the special, presumable the same as Miss Prism's photo. It quite clearly shows lining on the boiler and 'G W R' on the tender. From the tonal quality of both images I suggest she is in green livery although the Huntley clip is undated, I suspect its likely to be  1950-1 (?) so I guess she carried the green livery to the end.

https://www.huntleyarchives.com/preview.asp?image=1009077#

 

Sorry about the duplicate thread - my internet went down just as I clicked submit, but somehow still managed to post the thread!

 

Steve

[Steamport Southport]

20 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I concur; GW post 1945 unlined green with initials to withdrawal.  The photo of Seagull shows a BR smokebox number but no shed code; Skylark has one and I assume a smokebox numberplate as well.  Numberplates appear to be black backed, not red, and buffer beam numbers have either gone or are buried under the muck. 

 

Shedcode plates only started to be fitted some time after the numberplates. The Western Region (and others) still used their own systems until 1950.

 

As an example Abercynon became 88E on 01/02/1950.

 

http://www.brdatabase.info/sites.php?page=depots&subpage=main&id=3

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, steve howe said:

Very helpful, thanks guys. Coincidentally only hours after making my post I came across this clip from Huntley Archives which shows Skylark backing on to the special, presumable the same as Miss Prism's photo. It quite clearly shows lining on the boiler and 'G W R' on the tender. From the tonal quality of both images I suggest she is in green livery although the Huntley clip is undated, I suspect its likely to be  1950-1 (?) so I guess she carried the green livery to the end.

https://www.huntleyarchives.com/preview.asp?image=1009077#

 

Sorry about the duplicate thread - my internet went down just as I clicked submit, but somehow still managed to post the thread!

 

Steve

As it was a railtour working from Birmingham I suspect we might be seeing some of their usual 'contacts' at work preparing the engine.  The tender I wouldn't mind betting was a swap purely because it was still carrying GWR lettering and it might well have remained with the engine until the engine made its last journey to Swindon (where the tender would probably have gone back into the pool).  The repainted bufferbeam number was a common happening on ex GWR engines prepared for specials at Tyseley although adding lining was rather unusual 

[Miss Prism]

On 11/09/2019 at 15:12, The Johnster said:

The photo of Seagull shows a BR smokebox number but no shed code; Skylark has one and I assume a smokebox numberplate as well. 

 

I think Seagull was the only survivor to receive a smokebox numberplate,

 

[Miss Prism]

On 11/09/2019 at 10:53, Steamport Southport said:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/54551-3453-seagull/

 

I can't dispute "Painted in BR black one of only two to be so painted." but I can't recall any reference to that offhand.

 

[steve howe]

Quote

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/54551-3453-seagull/

 

I can't dispute "Painted in BR black one of only two to be so painted." but I can't recall any reference to that offhand.

I may be turning into an Anorak, but didn't the Birds have stiffening plates only on the rear axles? 

 

what's also interesting from the prototype photo is that Seagull seems to have fluted side rods, whereas I was under the impression the Birds had plain rods. Typically I have just fitted plain rods to my, as yet, unnamed version!

Steve

Edited September 12, 2019 by steve howe

[Miss Prism]

Chaffinch and Pelican also had fluted rods. Possibly others.

 

I think all the Birds were fitted with de Glehn bogies, but there seems to be some variation in the rivet pattern on the frames. The following page is an adhoc one, and I haven't yet sorted them into swing hanger and de Glehn bogies: http://www.gwr.org.uk/4-4-0-bogies.html
 

Edited September 13, 2019 by Miss Prism

[The Johnster]

Happy to be shown to be wrong, Ms P,  but the front bogies of these locos, along with the Dean Singles, Dukes, Cities/Atbaras, are Dean coach bogies.  This has it’s roots in the original design of the 30xx class as a 2-2-2, as a derailment to one of these, Wigmore Castle, in Box Tunnel was held to be the result of too much weight on the leading axle.  

 

The locos were rebuilt with an extended running plate supported by a Dean coach bogie to give the classic 30xx ‘Dean Bogie Single’.  The adaptation of this to a 4-4-0 in the Duke class led to the development of a family of 4-4-0s including Bulldogs, and thus the Birds. 

[Barry Ten]

The Flowers and at least the final series of Bulldogs - ie Birds - were fitted with de Glehn bogies, according to Nock (p81, Standard Gauge Great Western 4-4-0s  part1).

 

The earlier Dean bogie is described as a new locomotive bogie that was to some extent derived from the centre-less coaching stock bogie (p10, same source).

[brianusa]

All very interesting as I was able to see some of these at LA in my early days of trainspotting as a child.  No camera then - if only I'd have known!

     Brian.

[Miss Prism]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

... are Dean coach bogies. 

 

No.

 

Barry Ten's description of the Dean swing-hanger loco bogie as being 'to some extent derived from' is far more accurate. The matter is complicated by their being developments of the swing-hanger bogie, and there seems to have been a sort of 'semi-swing-semi-slider' at one stage. As Barry notes, the Flowers and Birds were built with de Glehn. The Cities were built with swing-hanger, but City of Truro migrated to a de Glehn at some point, as did other Cities.

 

4-4-0 bogie-swapping seems to have been rare on the GWR. The Dukedogs seem to inherit their bogie type from the donating Bulldog chassis, so maybe Collett didn't see much point in fitting the more modern de Glehns, but it begs the question as to whether some Dukedogs were eventually fitted with de Glehns from the withdrawn Birds.

 

Just about everything was swappable on the GWR, so I suspect I will regret any assumption about 4-4-0 bogie-swapping being 'rare'!

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by Miss Prism

[The Johnster]

I am duly elucidated, Ms P; about as complete an explanation as anyone could expect!  I agree that the general level of standardisation of components was already very well advanced on the GW before that nice Mr Churchward made all the engines look the same...

[Barry Ten]

I wouldn't have weighed in, except that, having built a Bird this year, Nock's two volumes on 4-4-0s were still on my coffee table.

[Steamport Southport]

The more information the better.

 

GWR 4-4-0s are something I'm lacking apart from an unbuilt Cotswold Flower and a couple of those GBL copies of the Bachmann City that came from the magazine partwork. I've always had a thing for them though since seeing the drawings in old issues of Railway Modeller.

 

 

 

Jason

[jim.snowdon]

On 12/09/2019 at 17:01, Miss Prism said:

Chaffinch and Pelican also had fluted rods. Possibly others.

 

I think all the Birds were fitted with de Glehn bogies, but there seems to be some variation in the rivet pattern on the frames. The following page is an adhoc one, and I haven't yet sorted them into swing hanger and de Glehn bogies: http://www.gwr.org.uk/4-4-0-bogies.html
 

There is, in Holcroft's Outline of GW Locomotive Practice, a drawing showing the Dean suspension arrangement and Halcroft's modification to replace this with the deGlehn sidebearer arrangement. That modification was originally done for the Flowers and the Birds, but there is no reason to suppose that it did not spread to other members of the double-framed 4-4-0 family as it is, in engineering terms, quite a simple modification. Looking at the site referenced by Miss P. above, the picture of City of Exeter would appear to have been modified - the clue lies in the partly visible bracket just above the bogie frames, along with the rivet pattern on the framed themselves. Were it not for the fact that that bogie has the shallower depth side frames, the bracket, which transfers the vertical load down onto the bearing cups, would be barely, if at all, visible.

 

Jim

[Miss Prism]

I do have the composite drawing in the Holcroft book, as well as the de Glehn bogie GA in Nock's 'Stars, Castles and Kings', although the reproduction of the latter is faint. It will be a while before I can get my head around how either of them works (I really don't understand how the mounting pillars are attached to the loco frame). From a modelling perspective, the difference between the functionality of the two types is somewhat academic though - what matters (for those who might be bothered about the subject) is the visual difference between the styles of 4-4-0 bogie sideframe, which is the main purpose of the the bogie page.

 

17 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

That modification was originally done for the Flowers and the Birds, but there is no reason to suppose that it did not spread to other members of the double-framed 4-4-0 family as it is, in engineering terms, quite a simple modification.

 

If it was such a simple modification, it seems strange that so many 4-4-0s retained their old swing-hanger bogies. Unless I am missing something obvious.

 

As you note, spotting the difference between the 18" sideframe and the 21" sideframe is tricky at the best of times, and I need to attune my perception.

 

[Redland]

The change to deGlehn required modification to the inside frames attaching a bearing flat surface to the outside of the inside frame, it also required the bogie mounting frame to be shorten removing the swing link mounting hole, once modified locos never changed back. It seem likely that about 1914 no more were converted the swing links were repaired, only the rebuilt Armstrong’s got converted. About a third of the Bulldogs were rebuilt only  1 curved framed one 3336 none of the Dukes were ever rebuilt. All the Dukedogs kept the type of bogie of the donating Bulldog 24 seem to have received the bogie from the Bulldog others had different ones of the same type. 3265 received a replacement bogie after 1939 for one with no strengthening plates on the spring brackets. The Birds all started with same bogie rivet pattern but by the 1940s there were at least 6 versions.All  DeGlehn bogies have a row of 8 or 10 rivets along the bottom in 3 groups 1-6-1 ,2-6-2,2-4-2,3-4-3. 3394 Albany had DeGlehn in 1910 probably 1 of 3 fitted in 1908.

 It is quite easy to see if a loco is fitted with swing links as the bottom fixings always pultrude below the frames even if only the nuts on the deep framed bogies. 

[Hal Nail]

Rather than start a new thread can I please ask the Bulldog experts here, did they ever have full frame lining and if so, how late?

 

I have a straight framed, cone boilered, portholed, top feed example - I've seen the picture in the beginners guide to GWR 4-4-0s of 3709 in that format in 1911 which has cab and tender lining but you cant tell if the chassis is lined. 

 

I have tried the usual livery guides and actually seen a painted postcard in fully lined but that could be artistic licence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by Hal Nail

[Miss Prism]

23 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

Rather than start a new thread can I please ask the Bulldog experts here, did they ever have full frame lining and if so, how late?

 

They did when built, but at some stage frame lining on the outside-framers ceased to be applied, and it is extremely difficult to tell from most pictures whether frame lining is present.  There was no precise change date. It is not documented. My feeling, and it is only a guess, is that frame lining would still be present in 1910 but started to disappear during WWI. Here's 3434 with lining shortly after topfeed fitting.