RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted September 12, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 12, 2019 I recently visited Weedon Depot in Northamptonshire, close by the WCML, and it struck me that it would be a good prototype to model. Originally built during the Napoleonic Wars as far away from the coast as possible, with access from London via the Grand Union Canal, it was seen as a safe place to bring the King in the event of an invasion. At one point it was the second largest munitions depot in the UK and was served by a canal branch from the Grand Union, but eventually, some time after the LNWR main line was built, a short railway branch into the depot was constructed from the nearby station at Weedon. Inside the depot a narrow gauge railway also served the various stores and magazines. Most of the massive original buildings survive and the depot is now a commercial / industrial site but there is a visitor centre, coffee shop etc; the rail tracks have been buried under concrete but bits show through and the track layout can easily be deduced - but here is the problem - there are almost no pictures that I can find that show locos and rolling stock within the depot, either standard or narrow gauge - in fact I saw only one picture of an NG loco that resembled a Ruston Hornsby 48DS. So my questions are: 1. Has anyone built a model of the Depot up until now, and 2. Can anyone point me at pictures of locomotives and / or stock within the depot? Tony 7 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AY Mod Posted September 12, 2019 Moderators Share Posted September 12, 2019 I visited the Ordnance Store yesterday for a look around. I've been meaning to go for quite a while. There's good general background information on the site to be found on the site owner's website which although aimed at the commercial letting of the units must be praised for recognising the heritage of the site - https://the-depot.uk/ The visitor centre in the gatehouse, although small, had some very friendly and knowledgeable volunteers to talk to and they have a book of copies of the original plans for many of the structures. Some copies aren't great but it's better to have them than not. The visitor centre hours are on the website and I can recommend a visit. There was a mix of standard and narrow gauge on site with the narrow gauge crossing the drawbridge and heading down a rather steep incline to the south of the site. The stores were built there for their proximity to the Grand Union Canal and when the London and Birmingham Railway arrived it crossed the canal near the junction only two or three feet above the level of the canal. Apparently the track sections had to be removed on occasion to allow narrow boats to access the stores. Imagine that happening now! Although part of the canal has been built over with a new residential development there is a small communal garden containing the vestiges of the canal where it crossed the L&B. I was curious about any locomotives too, one of the volunteers said that a photograph had just surfaced of one loco. The initial information they have had back is that this is a 1910 Andrew Barclay. I wonder how the narrow gauge was worked whether there were any locomotives or whether it was hand/horse operated? The plan for the wagon shed shown above shows the narrow gauge lines with a tight return loop at each end which must have been about 15' radius. There are remnants of standard gauge rails evident in the tarmac but I found nothing of the narrow gauge to determine any gauge. A fascinating and very modellable site. 7 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted September 12, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 12, 2019 Andy Thanks, very useful. Here is the picture that I referred to, taken from one of the onsite information panels, that I thought might show a 48DS, but it doesn't have the word 'Ruston' across its nose so someone may be able to tell me of a more likely candidate. I have looked through half a dozen books that I have, showing pictures of steam in Northamptonshire but I still can't find any of locos or trains around the Depot. Tony 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trog Posted September 12, 2019 Share Posted September 12, 2019 4 hours ago, AY Mod said: The stores were built there for their proximity to the Grand Union Canal and when the London and Birmingham Railway arrived it crossed the canal near the junction only two or three feet above the level of the canal. Apparently the track sections had to be removed on occasion to allow narrow boats to access the stores. Imagine that happening now! Although part of the canal has been built over with a new residential development there is a small communal garden containing the vestiges of the canal where it crossed the L&B. I think the story about removing the tracks to allow access is a confusion. If you look at the above map there is a drawbridge shown on the siding which is probably what is being remembered. The siding was some five feet or so below the mainline and a couple of feet above the main line of the canal level, I can remember standing on the old siding alignment when there was still water under the bridge, watching a Kingfisher, and there was enough head room then under the mainline for a narrowboat. So I suspect that the water level in the photo above has been raised to make it look better as if the Weedon canal had then been at the level shown when it connected through under the bridge the railway yard and half of Weedon would have been underwater. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Bucoops Posted September 13, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 13, 2019 What a gem of a place. Amazing so much has survived! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted September 13, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 13, 2019 9 hours ago, Trog said: I think the story about removing the tracks to allow access is a confusion. If you look at the above map there is a drawbridge shown on the siding which is probably what is being remembered. The siding was some five feet or so below the mainline and a couple of feet above the main line of the canal level, I can remember standing on the old siding alignment when there was still water under the bridge, watching a Kingfisher, and there was enough head room then under the mainline for a narrowboat. So I suspect that the water level in the photo above has been raised to make it look better as if the Weedon canal had then been at the level shown when it connected through under the bridge the railway yard and half of Weedon would have been underwater. I'm not sure that is quite right either! I have passed the opposite side of the railway bridge in a narrowboat numerous times and I don'[t believe that a narrowboat loaded with munitions could ever have got under it; the water level in the canal has not changed, although the small pool in the garden area shown above may, or may not be directly connected to it. Certainly the water level in that part of the canal that runs up the centre of the Depot has been lowered considerably - perhaps to avoid drowning accidents, or perhaps because it may leak, but in the visitor centre they have a model showing how a section of the main line would be slide diagonally out of the way, requiring all trains to be stopped for quite a time, and for the local station master to have to attend to remove certain locking pins. I can't imagine that this would have persisted too long before the branch spur into the depot would have become essential! Tony 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted September 13, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 13, 2019 That photo looks like a standard gauge Ruston 48DS, originally these had "Ruston" painted on the radiator end, cast plates came later. This one has probably been repainted, losing the name. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted September 13, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 13, 2019 Thanks Mike The "booklet of the R-H 48 & 88 DS's" by David R. Hall, of which I have a copy, shows a number of standard gauge 48DS locos as having been sold to the then Ministry of Supply around 1943, for use in various munitions establishments. None of these is shown for use at Weedon, but it is entirely possible. Tony 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 Fascinating. Ive long been aware of the place, but never visited, so can I ask: is it just a matter of "turn up and walk in", or are there 'opening times'? I'd wager that the NG was 18' gauge, and on the basis that I don't remember Mark Smithers' book on 18" steam railways mentioning locos being used there, that it was hand worked. Mr S is about the most diligent researcher in the universe, who spends days/weeks in archives to pursue even a small point, so it isn't credible that he would have missed any locos used there. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Jonboy Posted September 13, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 13, 2019 We turned up on Tuesday as swmbo wanted to go to riverknits, a hand dyed wool company. The site was open as it serves as a business park and parking was easy. There is a antiques centre, secondhand bookstore and cafe on site amongst the occupiers. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 This weekend looks an ideal time to visit (although I can't!), and to visit a lot of other interesting places https://www.northampton.gov.uk/info/200240/leisure-and-culture/100/heritage-open-days-in-northampton 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Davexoc Posted September 13, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 13, 2019 26 minutes ago, Nearholmer said: I'd wager that the NG was 18' gauge, and on the basis that I don't remember Mark Smithers' book on 18" steam railways mentioning locos being used there, that it was hand worked. Mr S is about the most diligent researcher in the universe, who spends days/weeks in archives to pursue even a small point, so it isn't credible that he would have missed any locos used there. I would have thought steam engines and munitions were not the best combination, although a fireless type might be more acceptable...? 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nearholmer Posted September 13, 2019 Share Posted September 13, 2019 (edited) That SG 0-4-0ST shown in the picture above looks to have a typical spark-arrestor used on locos for such places, the bulge at the bottom of the chimney, similar ones being fitted to early NG locos for military sites (later 18" gauge locos had more easily recognisable spark arrestors). From what I can work out, it was only where explosives were being made, as opposed to stored after being loaded into shells, that fireless locos, and things like non-ferrous wheels on wagons, were resorted to. I checked the IRS handbook for Northants: detail of the SG locos; no NG locos listed. Edited September 13, 2019 by Nearholmer 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted September 14, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 14, 2019 9 hours ago, Nearholmer said: Fascinating. Ive long been aware of the place, but never visited, so can I ask: is it just a matter of "turn up and walk in", or are there 'opening times'? I'd wager that the NG was 18' gauge, and on the basis that I don't remember Mark Smithers' book on 18" steam railways mentioning locos being used there, that it was hand worked. Mr S is about the most diligent researcher in the universe, who spends days/weeks in archives to pursue even a small point, so it isn't credible that he would have missed any locos used there. 9 hours ago, Jonboy said: We turned up on Tuesday as swmbo wanted to go to riverknits, a hand dyed wool company. The site was open as it serves as a business park and parking was easy. There is a antiques centre, secondhand bookstore and cafe on site amongst the occupiers. 9 hours ago, Nearholmer said: This weekend looks an ideal time to visit (although I can't!), and to visit a lot of other interesting places https://www.northampton.gov.uk/info/200240/leisure-and-culture/100/heritage-open-days-in-northampton As Jonboy has said, the site is now a business park and so it is open in normal business hours; the visitor centre is staffed by volunteers, details here: https://the-depot.uk/the-visitor-centre/ There is also a coffee shop and a mobile caterer on site selling "porky things". When visiting Northamptonshire, also look at: https://www.northamptonshiresurprise.com/ Tony 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted September 14, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 14, 2019 9 hours ago, Davexoc said: I would have thought steam engines and munitions were not the best combination, although a fireless type might be more acceptable...? 9 hours ago, Nearholmer said: That SG 0-4-0ST shown in the picture above looks to have a typical spark-arrestor used on locos for such places, the bulge at the bottom of the chimney, similar ones being fitted to early NG locos for military sites (later 18" gauge locos had more easily recognisable spark arrestors). From what I can work out, it was only where explosives were being made, as opposed to stored after being loaded into shells, that fireless locos, and things like non-ferrous wheels on wagons, were resorted to. I checked the IRS handbook for Northants: detail of the SG locos; no NG locos listed. There is also a lot more about the military history of the site on here: https://www.subbrit.org.uk/sites/weedon-royal-ordnance-depot/ (But still not a lot about the trains!) Tony 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted September 15, 2019 Share Posted September 15, 2019 Very interesting, My grandad was based there in WW2 and met his wife locally, I think they married in weedon. I lived in Towcester, then daventry for ten years and never visited ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted September 15, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 15, 2019 Yes, oddly, I have lived within 5 miles of the Depot for about 20 years and only visited it for the first time a couple of weeks ago! Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunalastair Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 On 12/09/2019 at 17:22, Tony Teague said: I recently visited Weedon Depot in Northamptonshire, close by the WCML, and it struck me that it would be a good prototype to model. 1. Has anyone built a model of the Depot up until now, and 2. Can anyone point me at pictures of locomotives and / or stock within the depot? In answer to the second question, I have just been using Weedon Depot as a prototype for a trial forced perspective 3D printed model. I have since painted this print, and will put a short post in the 'diorama' thread in due course. The very much simplified model represents the narrow gauge track running over the lift bridge over the canal. for comparison, this is how it appears from a different angle I visited Weedon last year for a more thorough explore, having previously just poked my head through the gates. As well as the SG track visible on various photographs on the web, I managed to find NG track in a couple of places, one under some parked vehicles and another leading into one of the historic goods lifts in one of the warehouses. Sadly I had no camera to hand that day, on my way back from a running event. The original NG railway layout was recorded by the OS (map extract from NLS) - much of the SG seems to have come later if I am interpreting this correctly. 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forward! Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 There has been significant redevelopment of Weedon Depot in recent years- it was for a long time an intractable "heritage at risk" site. Anyone interested in the site should have a look on the local councils' planning website. There will be scale drawings of the site accompanying applications for listed building consent, which are probably quicker to access than searching for the original architectural drawings in the Public Record Office. It also forms its own conservation area, and there was a very good outline of the historic development of the site conducted when it was designated back in the 2000s. https://www.daventrydc.gov.uk/living/planning-policy/conservation-areas/weedon-conservation-plan/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forward! Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 7 hours ago, Dunalastair said: The original NG railway layout was recorded by the OS (map extract from NLS) - much of the SG seems to have come later if I am interpreting this correctly. The SG and the NG was initially laid sometime after 1877 and before 1890 as a very simply siding serving a transhipment shed via a wagon turntable. It was then expanded to its more extensive layout during WWI. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunalastair Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 1 hour ago, Forward! said: ... there was a very good outline of the historic development of the site conducted when it was designated back in the 2000s. https://www.daventrydc.gov.uk/living/planning-policy/conservation-areas/weedon-conservation-plan/ Yes - I remember ploughing through those documents a while ago - probably just after I visited. There was indeed useful material in there given enough patience. The original warehouses in the main compound are generally in re-use and in fair condition, if a little modified over the years. The magazine buildings in the further compound seemed to be more of an issue. It would have been an interesting story if Napoleon had invaded and UK government had had to relocate to the 'centre of England' aka Weedon, as some stories had it. Thankfully those plans were never put to the test. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adanapress Posted July 17, 2023 Share Posted July 17, 2023 Some of the National Service herberts I trained at Blackdown in 1956 were posted to Weedon, I know not what they were doing, bit I do recall they were the very slightly brighter ones. Also in another life I report that during Mrs Thatchers privatisation period one of those larger warehouses held many thousands of tons of paper in reels, at my behest. oddly the floor was sandy and the fork lifts struggled a bit. It was the biggest print job since ration books in 1938, most of the industry co=operated.on the night. We shall not see its like again. . The R.A.O.C.( and its civilian cohorts ) itself no longer exists! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted July 17, 2023 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 17, 2023 I visited the Depot just 10 days ago and some parts - particularly the canal - look positively rural, with plenty of wild life: Whilst it is good to see the buildings 're-purposed', I'd personally prefer not to see some of the buildings restored to their historic context - but the site is privately owned and that is not going to happen. One building that was previously boarded up, out of use and behind a steel mesh barrier (building 17), has recently been restored and put back into use, which is always reassuring to see: Tony 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold daveyb Posted July 18, 2023 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18, 2023 (edited) The bell from the bell tower at Weedon (which would have been a fire bell in its day) is currently outside the Officers' Mess at Vauxhall Barracks, Didcot. It was moved and engraved to commemorate the closure of Weedon depot and its role passing to Central Ordnance Depot Didcot in about 1960. COD Didcot only lasted another couple of years when there was a review of storage and supply (may have been the end of the Ministry of Supply, etc) and the site was cleared for the construction of Didcot 'A' power station - itself consigned to the history books. There were never any munitions stored at Didcot and Weedon had long been replaced as an ammunition storage location, possibly as early as WW1. There were some munitions dug up during the demolition of No.3 (I think) Storage Depot RAF - the north end of COD Didcot where you can make out the standard 1940s style guard room now in use as a bank - but they were drill rounds and therefore inert. The Officers' Mess at Didcot and the General's house are buildings that date from the late 1890s development of the COD Didcot, which was chosen due to the proximity of the GWR's Provender Store (located about where the loco maint shed is now in Didcot yard - if it's still there). It was the ease siting and connectedness that made the site so attractive. Vauxhall Barracks (in Fox Hall Lane - which spelling was mis-heard, if either?) remains as the HQ for 11 Explosive Ordnance Disposal Regiment, The Royal Logistic Corps, where I spent a very busy four years around the time of the London Olympic Games. Edited July 18, 2023 by daveyb 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted July 18, 2023 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 18, 2023 That's interesting; I wonder where the bell tower was becasue the only tall structure now on site is a chimney: I believe that you are right that Weedon ceased to handle munitions before WW1; my understanding is that during that conflict it was mainly used to store and distribute boots, since these were largely produced nearby in Northampton. Later it seemed to be used solely for uniforms. Tony 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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