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Bob S

Hornby's 2019 Clerestory Offerings

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Hey folks, greetings from California.  Have a question regarding couplers.  Hornby has released (haven't seen one yet) some GWR clerestory coaches.  I have a preference for Kadee couplers, they even make a set that fit NEM sockets.  Has anyone modified these or other similar coaches to accommodate Kadees?  From the scarce pictures of these coaches, it looks like the stock couplers are molded onto the bogies.  Thanks for any help or advice!

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I have one of these which I intend to modify into a camping coach. The couplings are moulded onto the bogie and fitting an NEM pocket would require some work. As the bogies are BR Mk1 type perhaps the best option is to replace them with Dean type such as those from Stafford Model Works on Shapeways. 

 

Hope this helps.

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Basically a re-run of their classic (1961) models. These days the bogies clip in so making replacement with something more appropriate easy.

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These coaches are from tooling that dates back to the early 1960’s and are therefore quite rightly part of Hornby’s Railroad range. This is aimed at the budget end of the market.

I would suspect Hornby are trying to squeeze a few more quid out of a really old tooling.

No point in fitting a NEM pocket unless you intend to switch couplings.

You will need to snip of the awful angle iron that is the coupler moulded to the bogie.

As for Kadees, the best option would be a 146 fitted to the body. It will require some packing behind the buffer beam to allow attachment to the body. This will allow for the coupler box to fit snuggly against the buffer beam and the shank will be long enough to clear the buffer heads to avoid buffer lock.

This all depends on how tight the curves are on your layout. If the curves are too tight for a 146 then the next option would be to fit the 146 coupler into a 252 coupler box, this will extend the coupler head out a little further but still keep the couple box snug against the buffer beam.

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4 hours ago, TrevorP1 said:

I have one of these which I intend to modify into a camping coach. The couplings are moulded onto the bogie and fitting an NEM pocket would require some work. As the bogies are BR Mk1 type perhaps the best option is to replace them with Dean type such as those from Stafford Model Works on Shapeways. 

 

Hope this helps.

 

2 hours ago, Darth Vader said:

These coaches are from tooling that dates back to the early 1960’s and are therefore quite rightly part of Hornby’s Railroad range. This is aimed at the budget end of the market.

I would suspect Hornby are trying to squeeze a few more quid out of a really old tooling.

No point in fitting a NEM pocket unless you intend to switch couplings.

You will need to snip of the awful angle iron that is the coupler moulded to the bogie.

As for Kadees, the best option would be a 146 fitted to the body. It will require some packing behind the buffer beam to allow attachment to the body. This will allow for the coupler box to fit snuggly against the buffer beam and the shank will be long enough to clear the buffer heads to avoid buffer lock.

This all depends on how tight the curves are on your layout. If the curves are too tight for a 146 then the next option would be to fit the 146 coupler into a 252 coupler box, this will extend the coupler head out a little further but still keep the couple box snug against the buffer beam.

Or fit the Shapeways Dean Bogies as mentioned above, they come with an NEM socket

https://www.shapeways.com/shops/stafford_road_model_works?page[number]=2&page[limit]=48&page[order]=asc

 

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4 hours ago, TrevorP1 said:

I have one of these which I intend to modify into a camping coach. The couplings are moulded onto the bogie and fitting an NEM pocket would require some work. As the bogies are BR Mk1 type perhaps the best option is to replace them with Dean type such as those from Stafford Model Works on Shapeways. 

 

Hope this helps.

When did they change them?

I have a few of these from different periods and they all have Dean type bogies

 

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The ones fitted with the Dean bogies were a much later tooling that Hornby produced in the late 70's or early 80's and are totally different from the ones referred to in the original post.

 

If you Google "Hornby clerestory coaches" and then select images you can see that there are two very different mouldings.

Edited by Darth Vader
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9 minutes ago, melmerby said:

When did they change them?

I have a few of these from different periods and they all have Dean type bogies

 

The long ones with the printed panelling definitely come with Dean pattern bogies, but every example of the former Tri-ang  short clerestory in my possession has the BR1 type, whether riveted, plug in, and in GWR, LNER or MR livery.

 

It's possible that Hornby have done a run with Dean bogies (assuming they have the same size clip) but I've never seen one.

 

John 

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So they are doing a re-run of the very old Triang ones, rather than just the old ones?

 

I've just answered my own question.

Yes, 4913 & R4914 are the shorties with Mk 1 bogies

 

R4899 & R 4900 are long ones with Dean bogies (which all mine have)

 

Personally I would fit Kadees to the bogies, not the floor of the coach

Edited by melmerby

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I think these short old Triang ones are back because there is a demand for them by people who like to cut and shut and they will also be good for people who just don't care what bogies they run on.

 

For the former they will likely source their own bogies and the latter won't probably use Kadees or other coupling options.

 

 

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It would appear that Horny have released both types.

R4899 and R4900 are the later versions of the clerestory coaches with the printed sides and Dean bogies.

R4913 and R 4914 are the old Tri-ang short coaches from the 1960's

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8 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

The long ones with the printed panelling definitely come with Dean pattern bogies, but every example of the former Tri-ang  short clerestory in my possession has the BR1 type, whether riveted, plug in, and in GWR, LNER or MR livery.

 

It's possible that Hornby have done a run with Dean bogies (assuming they have the same size clip) but I've never seen one.

 

John 

 

Did they do MR versions of the original ones? I've only ever seen MR liveried 1980s versions made to go with the Compound.

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/company_details.asp?companyid=14

 

I know there was a bright red plastic release of them in a train set.

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_details.asp?itemid=440

 

More curious than anything as I've never seen them.

 

 

 

Jason

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Hornby released the short clerestories in 'teak' to go with an LNER train set, with a green 'Jinty' I recall.

 

Also black, green & red as engineers livery

 

Dava

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4 minutes ago, Dava said:

Hornby released the short clerestories in 'teak' to go with an LNER train set, with a green 'Jinty' I recall.

 

Also black, green & red as engineers livery

 

Dava

 

They also did a teak set to go with a B12 train set. Not that long ago either. 

 

https://www.vectis.co.uk/lot/Hornby-china-r1032_700605

 

 

 

Jason

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14 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

They also did a teak set to go with a B12 train set. Not that long ago either. 

 

 

So they've not been out of production long, or they still had lots in stock. Unlikely but I recall them being sold off at giveaway prices some years ago.

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3 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

 

Like these: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-x-Hornby-Midland-Clerestory-coaches-4863-6438-OO-gauge/352788797221?

 

According to hornbyguide.com they were sold as "L.M.S." clerestories, though there's no insignia or crest (contrary to what the hornbyguide listing says).

 

Ahh. I was expecting something from the 1960s or 1970s. 

 

No wonder I had given up on Hornby by that point if they were releasing rubbish like that as main range stock. I suppose the demise of Mainline meant there wasn't much competition.

 

 

 

Jason

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I saw these this morning and had a flash of nostalgia.  If memory serves, these did not represent any particular coach diagram but could be GWR, Midland or SR depending on livery.  I recall having a set of "Midland" coaches.

 

As for couplings, I draw your attention to this: 

Scroll down the page until you get to Tony's ideas on coach rake couplings.  I used this design a lot on my coaches and it does work well. 

 

P1010005-001.JPG.4bcfc0a8c9e7f7aefd5e319ae6eaa6ea.JPG

 

Just an example of how Tony's couplings look.  You can't see them of course, part of the beauty.  The dummy vac/heat pipes are bent wire.

 

Kadees have an unfortunate feature of being sloppy fore and aft (unless newer designs have improved), making it near impossible to get close coupling.  Better IMO to have rigid couplings a la Tony through the rake, leaving only the issue of coupling one coach to the loco.

 

You could also upgrade the bogies by using the MJT or Brassmaster etched brass replacements.  Use the original sides cut from the plastic bogies and glue to the brass replacements.

 

I remember bodging coach bogies to take Kadees years ago, before NEM.  At the time I used #7, but I think these have gone now (and not before time, they were horrible).

 

From the point of view of the physics of the thing, it is better to leave the bogie to do its job and attach the coupling to the body.  Usually a difficult proposition because there is usually very little clearance.

 

Anyway my 2 cents.

 

John

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Re. the fore-and-aft slop in Kadees not allowing proper close-coupling. True, but you can still get much closer than the standard tension-locks permit.

 

I aim for a buffer-to-buffer gap of about 4mm, though with a warning that, if they are going on the main chassis rather than the bogies, you will need more than this to cope with tight curves. Empirically, my distance is OK down to 2' radius pulling and 3' propelling (Streamline Medium radius crossover).

 

My current standard practice is to fit Keen Systems Close Coupler bases and Roco NEM coupler heads within sets. This combination gives touching buffers on straight track (where appropriate) but opens out on curves sufficiently to go round set-track radii. The Roco couplers will uncouple using the same ramps as tension-locks if desired, allowing "on-stage" re-formation of trains, though I don't require that.

 

I just fit Kadee heads to the outer ends of sets to match my locos.  

 

When it comes to body/main chassis mounting, the practical solution using Kadees is to come through the buffer beam. This usually overcomes any clearance issues, but the increased height means they won't couple to anything with Kadees set at the standard level so, again it's use is best confined within sets.

 

John

 

  

Edited by Dunsignalling

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8 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Ahh. I was expecting something from the 1960s or 1970s. 

 

No wonder I had given up on Hornby by that point if they were releasing rubbish like that as main range stock. I suppose the demise of Mainline meant there wasn't much competition.

 

 

 

Jason

You could always build a Ratio one:

large-720.jpg

 

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First of all, I want to thank everyone for their advice and observations - invaluable.

 

So, mine came today.  I conducted some surgery, removing the tension lock components and hogging out a pocket on the top of the brace.  A regular #3 Kadee fits just fine and does not interfere with anything.  the coach runs smoothly through an s-curve on my board.

 

On a tangent, I’ve observed coaches having white roofs.  This can’t have lasted, could they?  What have folks done to make them look more realistic?  

724BCC31-30D7-4232-B517-A8D144C954E0.jpeg

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7 hours ago, Bob S said:

First of all, I want to thank everyone for their advice and observations - invaluable.

 

On a tangent, I’ve observed coaches having white roofs.  This can’t have lasted, could they?  What have folks done to make them look more realistic?  

 

I'm sure I've seen a picture somewhere of a white roofed clerestory on an express in the 1930s with IIRC a King up front, unless my memory has really gone doolally

 

They wuldn't have stayed white for very long in traffic.

Edited by melmerby

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On 14/09/2019 at 09:16, melmerby said:

 

I have several. They need a revamp though as I built them when I was about twelve and have a paint job that looks like it was applied with a yard brush. I would probably be better starting again with new kits.

 

 

 

Jason

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10 hours ago, Bob S said:

...On a tangent, I’ve observed coaches having white roofs.  This can’t have lasted, could they?  What have folks done to make them look more realistic?  ...

On that part of the UK railway I observed most closely, the final outing for white coach roofs was on the newly built Pullman cars of 1960. Because they were introduced into the - still largely steam hauled - Pullman services typically two at a time you could easily pick out the new vehicles from a distance - for a couple of weeks!

 

The usual matt grey brown deposit compounded of soot, rust, and whatever dust the various ballast stones, native rock and soils en route supplied, with the residue of the baked cylinder oil as an efficient binder to stick it all down, soon obscured the white while steam working prevailed.

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