Hornby's 2019 Clerestory Offerings

[Ravenser]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I have several. They need a revamp though as I built them when I was about twelve and have a paint job that looks like it was applied with a yard brush. I would probably be better starting again with new kits.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Try paintstripper on them.

 

I had a couple built at about that sort of age , and they happily broke up and disassembled for rebuild after they were treated with Model Strip  Rebuild of Ratio GW 4 wheeler   

 

It is worth a try - at that age you probably would have used polystyrene cement which may have become brittle with age

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 

Try paintstripper on them.

 

I had a couple built at about that sort of age , and they happily broke up and disassembled for rebuild after they were treated with Model Strip  Rebuild of Ratio GW 4 wheeler   

 

It is worth a try - at that age you probably would have used polystyrene cement which may have become brittle with age

 

Would have been MekPak or Humbrol liquid poly by then. I never really used the tubes, too stringy.

 

I'll have to dig them out. Probably over twenty five years since I've seen them.

 

 

 

Jason

[Bob S]

7 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

On that part of the UK railway I observed most closely, the final outing for white coach roofs was on the newly built Pullman cars of 1960. Because they were introduced into the - still largely steam hauled - Pullman services typically two at a time you could easily pick out the new vehicles from a distance - for a couple of weeks!

 

The usual matt grey brown deposit compounded of soot, rust, and whatever dust the various ballast stones, native rock and soils en route supplied, with the residue of the baked cylinder oil as an efficient binder to stick it all down, soon obscured the white while steam working prevailed.

Thanks for sharing your experience!  Of course it makes sense, but it’s nice to know the reality.  Still wonder why it was done...

[melmerby]

8 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

On that part of the UK railway I observed most closely, the final outing for white coach roofs was on the newly built Pullman cars of 1960. Because they were introduced into the - still largely steam hauled - Pullman services typically two at a time you could easily pick out the new vehicles from a distance - for a couple of weeks!

 

The usual matt grey brown deposit compounded of soot, rust, and whatever dust the various ballast stones, native rock and soils en route supplied, with the residue of the baked cylinder oil as an efficient binder to stick it all down, soon obscured the white while steam working prevailed.

The GWR stopped painting roofs white in the late 1930s IIRC

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

15 hours ago, Bob S said:

Thanks for sharing your experience!  Of course it makes sense, but it’s nice to know the reality.  Still wonder why it (white painting of coach roofs) was done...

Technically, I believe the best description is to consider it a skeuomorphic feature. (The term originates from architecture and refers to the replication of features that were once functional. So for example the stone lintel beams of classical Greek temples had carved representations of the earlier wooden construction, which was totally redundant in stone. Perhaps the best current example are the icons of the WIMP interface all over our computer screens. Electronic documents aren't filed in anything like the suspension file, or disposed of in the wastepaper basket, as represented by the Icons for these functions.)

 

The original method of waterproofing a canvas over timber coach roof, was to apply several coats of white lead paint. While this was purely functional, it of course meant newly constructed coaches had a white roof. (This would steadily go grey even without the benefit of steam loco fall out.) So persist with white, even on an all steel roof, where the paint colour is irrelevant to the corrosion protection function.

[The Johnster]

The old Triang 'shortie' clerestories were originally introduced in 1961 (I think!) to go with 'Lord of the Isles', also re-released recently in more or less original form.  They are not accurate models of any Dean coach, as they are too short and have the wrong number of compartments, but can be cut'n'shut and lengthened into 'near enough' models of several prototypes.  They respond well to a bit of working up; mine have new buffers, clerestory 'frosted' glazing, compartment dividers, and seating.  The bogies can be easily made into ersatz Deans; cut the tie bars off and provide footboards.  My footboards are Sainsbury's cafe coffee stirrers cut in half lengthways and to length, with rebates for the axleboxes, simply superglued in place.  Alternatively, and especially if you want to use NEM fittings for your couplings, spring for the Stafford Road/Shapeways 3D prints.  I haven't bothered (yet) with the underframe details, which are crude separate units in the style of Triang coaches of that era.

 

I suspect that continued demand on 'Bay for coaches to alter to the several prototypes that can be achieved with them by cut'n'shut modellers is what provoked Hornby into giving them another outing.  I have replaced the wheels on mine with Bachmann 14mm coach wheels, which run very well and freely in the old B1 bogies.

[SRman]

On 13/09/2019 at 20:55, Dunsignalling said:

The long ones with the printed panelling definitely come with Dean pattern bogies, but every example of the former Tri-ang  short clerestory in my possession has the BR1 type, whether riveted, plug in, and in GWR, LNER or MR livery.

 

It's possible that Hornby have done a run with Dean bogies (assuming they have the same size clip) but I've never seen one.

 

John 

 

 

I have some very old Triang clerestories, one of which has a completely different type of bogie, made of cast metal, with the early open axleboxes that Triang used to use. I'm not sure what the bogie actually represents, but it occurs to me that just maybe it was part of the Australian/NZ productions with the Transcontinental style bogies instead of BR1 types.

[john new]

Thanks for the tips.

 

[BernardTPM]

7 hours ago, SRman said:

I have some very old Triang clerestories, one of which has a completely different type of bogie, made of cast metal, with the early open axleboxes that Triang used to use. I'm not sure what the bogie actually represents, but it occurs to me that just maybe it was part of the Australian/NZ productions with the Transcontinental style bogies instead of BR1 types.

 

The 1961 examples had open ended axleboxes, but of the plastic BR1-ish type fitted to the older '9 inch' range of coaches (the new closed axlebox BR1 came in in 1962) so that does sound like they were local production.

[DWSHARPE1]

On 13/09/2019 at 09:13, Darth Vader said:

These coaches are from tooling that dates back to the early 1960’s and are therefore quite rightly part of Hornby’s Railroad range. This is aimed at the budget end of the market.

I would suspect Hornby are trying to squeeze a few more quid out of a really old tooling.

No point in fitting a NEM pocket unless you intend to switch couplings.

You will need to snip of the awful angle iron that is the coupler moulded to the bogie.

As for Kadees, the best option would be a 146 fitted to the body. It will require some packing behind the buffer beam to allow attachment to the body. This will allow for the coupler box to fit snuggly against the buffer beam and the shank will be long enough to clear the buffer heads to avoid buffer lock.

This all depends on how tight the curves are on your layout. If the curves are too tight for a 146 then the next option would be to fit the 146 coupler into a 252 coupler box, this will extend the coupler head out a little further but still keep the couple box snug against the buffer beam.

 

[DWSHARPE1]

I think that there is a demand for some of these older models originally produced by Tri-ang.  Sadly, there will be very few old models produced.  During the time Hornby went into a peculiar stage and removed experienced people like Simon Kohler and moved the offices away from Margate, some bright spark gave the order to scrap a lot of older tools.  This means that they will not be able to be produced.

[Mark Dickerson]

That may be. However, looking at Hatton's announced generic coaches, perhaps Hornby might look at their "heritage" stuff  and not write it off. Another Railroad clerestory and a new loco chassis -perhaps to Crewe or Derby standards - with new bodies might be possible.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

2 minutes ago, Mark Dickerson said:

...perhaps Hornby might look at their "heritage" stuff  and not write it off...

Not seen any signs yet of Hornby writing off heritage toolings that are still usable. And I suspect Hornby just added one for the future in the form of the new Terrier.

 

2 hours ago, DWSHARPE1 said:

I think that there is a demand for some of these older models originally produced by Tri-ang.  Sadly, there will be very few old models produced.  During the time Hornby went into a peculiar stage and removed experienced people like Simon Kohler and moved the offices away from Margate, some bright spark gave the order to scrap a lot of older tools.  This means that they will not be able to be produced.

What are these missing Triang items? Sadly some really neat early toolings like the 'Trestrol' were wrecked by Triang to make their Battle space toys. Others will have simply worn out through extended use: it was acknowledged by SK that the Midland Pullman tools were 'past it' for example.

[Mark Dickerson]

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Not seen any sign yet of Hornby writing off heritage toolings that are still usable. And I suspect Hornby just added one for the future in the form of the new Terrier

Possibly, but would the new chassis be any cheaper than the old, or the Jouef/Electrotren/GVH chassis (ignoring what gets shoved on top)? Perhaps they should look at their Railroad range with an eye to the "continuing" market.

[phil-b259]

On 17/09/2019 at 20:25, melmerby said:

The GWR stopped painting roofs white in the late 1930s IIRC

 

So did many others - the actions of a certain Herr Hitler meaning white roofs were not a terribly good idea.

 

Up till then however white (or some lightish colour) was actually helpful as a temperature control device!  Even these days railway infrastructure paint the sides of the rails white in summer months and even though they don't stay pristine very long, the reduction in temperature still persists.

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

12 hours ago, Mark Dickerson said:

Possibly, but would the new chassis be any cheaper than the old, or the Jouef/Electrotren/GVH chassis (ignoring what gets shoved on top)? Perhaps they should look at their Railroad range with an eye to the "continuing" market.

So in what way are Hornby not looking at the 'continuing market' for the Railroad range? There is a selection available, and it has had additions. This doesn't happen at the rate of additions to the main range, but that's the economics of such an operation, mostly utilising the superseded tooling displaced from the main range or the bought in Dapol and Lima items.

 

Whether the new Terrier mechanism is lower cost than the previous would need a tear down comparison, and some appraisal of the likely state of the old tooling. If the old mechanism tooling was approaching 'life expiry' then the cost of renewal is present if the model is to continue in the range, and the options for how that money is to be spent will range from 'like for like' to 'renewal to current standard'; and the decision will be on potential best return on investment. My opinion, the 'current standard' will probably win out.  (Hornby use the same mechanism internals for their main range and Railroad Gresley pacifics.)

[Mark Dickerson]

3 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

So in what way are Hornby not looking at the 'continuing market' for the Railroad range? There is a selection available, and it has had additions. This doesn't happen at the rate of additions to the main range, but that's the economics of such an operation, mostly utilising the superseded tooling displaced from the main range or the bought in Dapol and Lima items.

How they've done things up to now might, I suggest, lose them sales - a new clerestory or even 4-wheeler at the right price would give an alternative for kitbashers; altering the wheelbase of the 0-6-0 "base" chassis likewise. I take your point about cascaded/parallel release mechanisms (although - not sure - were the Lima pancake-replacements purely Railroad?), but they have tweaked the 0-4-0 and 0-6-0 in the past.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

1 hour ago, Mark Dickerson said:

How they've done things up to now might, I suggest, lose them sales - a new clerestory or even 4-wheeler at the right price would give an alternative for kitbashers...

One of the retailers has done some of that job on Hornby; now is £30 for a four or six wheel coach 'the right price'? (To me that's practically full fat price for a model of nothing in particular, aka a random blob.) It costs what it costs to design, tool and produce in China , so no major difference in price if it was from Hornby; and that pushes it out of the Railroad bracket.

 

1 hour ago, Mark Dickerson said:

...altering the wheelbase of the 0-6-0 "base" chassis likewise.

I too feel that a new superior 'universal' 0-6-0T chassis wouldn't hurt. What I would expect them to do is use a new full fat mechanism as the basis, and there I feel lies the problem. They have now quite recently tooled 3 all new mechanisms to go under new 0-6-0T (J50, Terrier, Peckett) but all three of them are dimensionally accurate and as a result none of them anywhere near either the Crewe 7'3"+8'3" or Derby 8'+ 8'6" with roughly 4'8" wheel that were the common choices around the UK.

 

So which popular subject to go for, to tool a new main range 0-6-0T model? The problem there is that Bachmann have long occupied the 'accurate' territory for Panniers and Jinties, which are the most common tank locos which had these wheelbases. (Of these two the least worst choice is the Pannier, as the Bachmann item is now quite dated, and Hornby could make a much better main range model.) But would Hornby really want to go there, against a price depressing heap of plentiful s/h which their new delightful main range model would flood onto the s/h market?

 

2 hours ago, Mark Dickerson said:

...were the Lima pancake-replacements purely Railroad?...

They were, and are, and evermore will be, WWE, even if Hornby don't care to admit it!

[Hroth]

20 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

it was acknowledged by SK that the Midland Pullman tools were 'past it' for example.

 

I don't know what SK said about the Midland Pullman tools, but he did say that a lot of old tooling had been stored inappropriately at the back of the Margate warehouse, rain had got in, some were visibly rusted to hell (evidently in the case of the APT toolset) and the shelving was in such a poor state that it was unsafe to retrieve other items to examine them.

 

I would imagine that when Hornby pulled out of Margate to go to Sandwich, someone decided that all the old tooling may as well be skipped and this went for even newer tooling that wasn't affected by rust or access problems.  There was one scene in the TV program when Hornby were announcing the Terrier and 66 models where SK said in effect, "this was all that was left" and pointed to the old tool that produced the Triang tunnel...

 

However, they still seem to be churning out some pretty old stuff, so a lot does seem to have survived!

 

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Hroth
spelin

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

4 minutes ago, Hroth said:

...However, they still seem to be churning out some pretty old stuff, so a lot does seem to have survived!

That's the crucial point for me. I reckon all the tooling that was viable for continued production was already in China; just old dross in the UK, and 'somebody' made a decision to get rid. (Possibly not the optimum decision, I should think they could have sold it off for much more than scrap value to sentimenthusiasts.) And thus the question I posted earlier:

21 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

What are these missing Triang items? Sadly some really neat early toolings like the 'Trestrol' were wrecked by Triang to make their Battle space toys. Others will have simply worn out through extended use...

 

[woodenhead]

15 minutes ago, Hroth said:

However, they still seem to be churning out some pretty old stuff, so a lot does seem to have survived!

 

 

The Triang shorty Clerestory tools must have been made with unobtainium, would they be 60 years old now.

 

Clearly a rising pensionable age is not just a human reality.

[Mark Dickerson]

On 04/11/2019 at 15:51, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

One of the retailers has done some of that job on Hornby; now is £30 for a four or six wheel coach 'the right price'? (To me that's practically full fat price for a model of nothing in particular, aka a random blob.) It costs what it costs to design, tool and produce in China , so no major difference in price if it was from Hornby; and that pushes it out of the Railroad bracket.

I supect £30 Railroad coaches aren't that far off anyway. Mind you, Hornby does potentially have more reach than Hatton's, and it could put anything new in train sets.

 

On 04/11/2019 at 15:51, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

I too feel that a new superior 'universal' 0-6-0T chassis wouldn't hurt. What I would expect them to do is use a new full fat mechanism as the basis, and there I feel lies the problem. They have now quite recently tooled 3 all new mechanisms to go under new 0-6-0T (J50, Terrier, Peckett) but all three of them are dimensionally accurate and as a result none of them anywhere near either the Crewe 7'3"+8'3" or Derby 8'+ 8'6" with roughly 4'8" wheel that were the common choices around the UK.

 

It's what I'd expect, but I don't know if it was the case with their Electrtotren/Jouef chassis - now on its third body. Nice little chassis, but not exactly full fat by any means. I suppose I'm just hanking for a nice chassis block with varying wheel spacings like the old County/Schools/Compound/D49, sentimenthusiast that I am. (I am *so* nicking that term )

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On ‎04‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 16:23, woodenhead said:

The Triang shorty Clerestory tools must have been made with unobtainium, would they be 60 years old now...

The injection moulding toolmakers and technique they employed were first class. The disappointing aspect is that it wasn't fully exploited. A few items show what was possible; I have often wondered if there were periods when the designers and toolmakers perhaps didn't have quite as much supervision as usual, and put a little extra in to show their capability?

3 minutes ago, Mark Dickerson said:

...their Electrotren/Jouef chassis - now on its third body. Nice little chassis, but not exactly full fat by any means.

You mean the one they used for the Electrotren 'Black Ajax' production? Just way to small for anything but an early Manning Wardle or a similar industrial; way off for a railway company loco (in 4mm, 3'6" wheel, 5' + 5'9" wheelbase, and it is still very small in HO, 4' wheel, 5'8" + 6'6" wheelbase).

[The Johnster]

We're going over old ground.  I've been confused by Hornby's 'Railroad' brand for some time as they don't seem particularly consistent in it's 'application'.  IIRC the original intention was to offer a range of budget priced amortised tooling items in train sets, distinguished for sales purposes from the serious modellers' fully detailed and more expensive range.  This has led to some anomalies, for instance the mk1 coaches which were very good models when they were first introduced, but standards have moved on and a much better range of Hornby mk1s is now available.  So H have 2 ranges of mk1s which are competing with each other, with a not enormous price difference unless you are buying a 12 coach rake all at once.  The Railroad mk1s have NEM couplers and current metal wheels, and the difference is primarily in separate handrail detail.

 

'Smokey Joe', the 4 wheel coaches, long mineral wagons, and 'Thomas' clearly belong in Railroad, but what about the Crosti?  Pretty much full fat price and not a bad model.  What about the Airfix A28/30 auto trailer, basically the old Airfix tooling and cutting edge when Airfix first introduced it, again almost full fat pricing.  

 

The shorty clerestories are particularly confusing.  Again, a fairly hefty price tag for what is fundamentally still a 1961 toy with the wrong bogies, no internal detail, outdated couplings, and the screw on roof and underframe detail stuck on the bottom; the coach is 'intergral bodyshell' from the moulding as the 8" Staniers that preceded the 1st generation Triang 9" mk1s, so already redacted in 1961.  The body shell is an amazing piece of plastic injection moulding, floor/sides/ends in one piece with very well defined panelling; Triang were pretty good with plastic!  No doubt the price is fair; the coaches must cost next to nothing to produce beyond the wage bill but assembling, packing, and transporting them from China is not a free lunch, and it is competitive with what was being asked prior to this release on 'Bay.  One significant improvement has appeared on these coaches over the years, in that the bogies are no longer riveted and use plug in pivot pins, which at least makes them easier to get rid of...

 

Not saying they can't be worked up, and I enjoy that sort of modelling, but I'd like to see a 'new from scratch' tooling reissue of these and the 2721, which needs a completely new chassis, to current full fat standards.  I'd expect the coaches to go for comparable money to the LSWR panelled non gangways, and about £140 for the pannier.  Perhaps the chassis for this could be the basis of a head to head with Bachmann, involving 57xx/8750s without top feed casings and plumbing.  I can dream, can't I?  2721s had varying full or half cabs, and would occupy the same 'market niche' as Baccys Johnson 1F.

[The Johnster]

On 13/09/2019 at 07:14, TrevorP1 said:

I have one of these which I intend to modify into a camping coach. The couplings are moulded onto the bogie and fitting an NEM pocket would require some work. As the bogies are BR Mk1 type perhaps the best option is to replace them with Dean type such as those from Stafford Model Works on Shapeways. 

 

Hope this helps.

Stafford Road Works/Shapeways Dean 8'6" with footboards, printed with NEM dovetail mounts.  They run very well with current Hornby 14mm diameter wheels.