5972 Liveries

[Hilux5972]

Hi all

 

Ive been searching my usual go-to site with no luck. I’m trying to find out the various liveries that Olton Hall carried over her lifetime but the BRDatabase website only lists shed allocations, no info on overhauls or repaints etc. Anyone have any ideas? Or other sites that could be useful? 

 

Cheers

[Miss Prism]

Built 1937. Start here for liveries.

 

[Hilux5972]

I’m looking for something that specifically says which liveries 5972 carried, not just a General outline. 

Edited September 13, 2019 by Hilux5972
Correction

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Hilux5972 said:

I’m looking for something that specifically says which liveries 5972 carried, not just a General outline. 

 

That probably wouldn't exist. Repaints weren't noted for most ordinary locomotives. Duchesses. Kings, MNs, A3s, A4s, etc. maybe. But a bog standard mixed traffic locomotive wouldn't even be seen as relevant. There were thousands of them.

 

The best you will get is using the above to find out what livery it would have carried from new and then finding as many dated photographs as possible to see what livery it is carrying.

 

 

 

Jason

[Hilux5972]

Every locomotive had engine history cards. How else would Swindon be able to work out when it’s next general was, and if it was to be a heavy or a light etc. They may be at Kew Gardens along with others but being in New Zealand I cant just pop in and see. I’ll keep hunting and hopefully something will come up 

[Steamport Southport]

2 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

Every locomotive had engine history cards. How else would Swindon be able to work out when it’s next general was, and if it was to be a heavy or a light etc. They may be at Kew Gardens along with others but being in New Zealand I cant just pop in and see. I’ll keep hunting and hopefully something will come up 

 

Yes. But they didn't record everything on them. Just important things like boilers, tender swaps and repairs. The engine repair cards are more like an MOT report.

 

What colour they were or what logo they carried is unimportant to how they work.

 

Even the engine cards were often wrong. What loco is in Tyseley? Is it 4983 or 4965? Officially it's 4983. Sold to Woodhams as 4983. Bought by Tyseley as 4983. The engine is 4965. That change wasn't recorded.

 

Some examples here. Things like "brickarch repairs" or "broken spring" are noted. Not what colour they painted it.

 

http://www.justaclickago.com/B251to300.html

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

You can ascertain a loco’s first livery from her build date; it is whatever livery was in use for that class at that time.  After that it’s dated photos, ‘informed guesstimation’, and extrapolation from build and photo dates. 

 

A steam loco has to have it’s boiler inspected every 5 years, but if the inspection, carried out by a qualified Board of Trade inspector, is passed an extension of 2 years can be, and normally was, granted.  When this period is up, the loco must come out of service.  

 

It is overhauled at main works at this time, and as the boiler takes longer to overhaul than the loco, goes back into service with a different boiler, freshly repaired and certificated, for another seven years.  

 

Thus one can extrapolate the dates of the loco’s re-entry to service from works overhauls, allowing leeway for periods spent awaiting workshop space.  The GW modelling site gives details of liveries and the date they were introduced, so even if you have no photo for the period you want, you can make a stab at it based on the principle that the loco is repainted every 7 years or so, allowing for time under repair or awaiting attention. 

 

This is a bit ‘hit and miss’, but is sometimes your best guess in lieu of definitive information.  You can always repaint if information comes to light at a later date showing you got it wrong!

 

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by The Johnster

[Hilux5972]

Yes I guess that’s true. I’ll take another look at the website Miss Prism linked too. Next task is to try and get a hold of overhaul history for 5972 then lol. 

 

[Marshall5]

I think that you may have more success by searching for dated images of 5972.  A quick search on line revealed several:

1/8/58 Lined green, new crest, Collett tender.  Appeared recently repainted.   Prior to repainting in green it would have carried lined black for some years.

13/9/58       "                  "                      "

      7/61       "                  "           Hawksworth tender

 7/7/63        " ?      filthy                       "

Same condition when withdrawn 31/12/63.  To Barry 5/64

Ray.

[The Johnster]

1958 was the year that the new crest was introduced, so the loco must have been repainted that year and carried that livery up to withdrawal; I recall the loco at Barry in the livery under the crud.  Extrapolating back from 1958, a previous overhaul is probably 1951, so lined black livery with a unicycling lion would have been carried, but black number plates had been re-introduced after a period of red backed ones in early BR days.  

 

The next 7 year extrapolation takes us back to 1944, and austerity unlined green with G crest W on tender.  The next extrapolation from that nicely takes us to 1937, when the loco was built, in lined green with the shirtbutton logo.  

 

The start and end dates, 1937 and 1958, are known and confirmed, and by extrapolating in 7 year periods based on the boiler renewals as they run out of certificate, have a very probable, though not confirmed, timeline for the loco.  But it only needs to be a year out and a repaint after May 1945 to put the loco in lined green livery until the early 50s.  So, it must be regarded as a last resort to attempt to make the least uneducated guesstimate in lieu of definitive information, and must be subject to alteration if definitive information becomes available at a later date.

 

If you think Halls are a problem, just try finding out which 57xx/8750 panniers carried boilers with or without top feeds at any given time...

[Miss Prism]

I am not at all convinced about the dependability of the '7-year' measure.

 

[jim.snowdon]

Nor am I, since, as far as I can determine, time limited certificates for locomotive boilers only came in with the rise of the preservation movement. Before that, the railways were responsible for their own boiler inspection and management arrangements. The only boilers that were subject to legal periodic examinations were those covered by the Factories Act.

Locomotive overhauls were worked out on the basis of mechanical condition and boiler condition as determined by inspection at periodic intervals. So, when a particular locomotive did eventually get sent in for a heavy overhaul depended very much on the amount of use it had had, together with the effects of local water conditions on ther boiler.

 

Jim

[Halvarras]

Just looked up a photo of 5972 taken from the 'black bridge' at Truro (my 2nd home in the late 60s!) preparing to depart on a down train, in Bradford Barton' s b&w album "Great Western Steam in Cornwall", page 34. Curious - loco' s cab side clearly indicates lined black, but tender appears unlined with "BRITISH RAILWAYS" in Egyptian serif lettering just visible - so is the tender black or green? Not my era of expertise I'm afraid (see above!) but hopefully worth a mention.

Sadly the photo is undated.

Neil

[jim.snowdon]

It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that the tender had been swapped for one off another locomotive. They were all interchangeable, and a swap would be entirely within the capabilities of the larger sheds. Keeping the liveries matched would be of minimal importance.

 

Jim

[Hilux5972]

Now that would be an interesting model! 

[Hilux5972]

Now that would be an interesting model! 

[JimC]

On 14/09/2019 at 19:49, Miss Prism said:

I am not at all convinced about the dependability of the '7-year' measure.

 

In "Swindon Steam" Cook says the LMS had a rule that boilers needed to be taken off the frames for full examination every 5 years, or 8 years in Scotland.  I'm sure I've seen some boiler change records online for some of the preserved GWR locos, but can't find it right now.

[Hilux5972]

2 hours ago, JimC said:

In "Swindon Steam" Cook says the LMS had a rule that boilers needed to be taken off the frames for full examination every 5 years, or 8 years in Scotland.  I'm sure I've seen some boiler change records online for some of the preserved GWR locos, but can't find it right now.

The Book of The Halls series by Ian Sixsmith lists the dates boilers were changed and the numbers of those boilers. And it does give overhauls dates but it doesn’t give any further details. 

[jim.snowdon]

11 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

Now that would be an interesting model! 

Like the 28xx that ran for a while coupled to a 4000 gallon tender (and got photographed).

 

Jim

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

Like the 28xx that ran for a while coupled to a 4000 gallon tender (and got photographed).

 

Jim

 

Like 3802 at Llangollen then. Currently running around with a spare Hall tender.

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

On 14/09/2019 at 19:49, Miss Prism said:

I am not at all convinced about the dependability of the '7-year' measure.

 

It is guesstimation at best, but IMHO is a reasonable method to employ when other evidence is not available, and seems to work out to be accurate for 5972.  It should, therefore, be used with the proviso that the model be repainted if more definitive information comes to light.  Modelling should never be based on assumptions but sometimes needs must.  I can be reasonably definitve about my other panniers; 8448, 6762, 9649 and 9681 were delivered new to Tondu shed and I know their building dates, so can assume livery accurately, and I have photographic evidence for 5756 and 2761.

 

My current project, 5707 as at Tondu 1948-51, is based on this method, and will be painted in austerity black with G W R initials but feature red backed number plates and a BR smokebox number plate.  There is a 1958 photo of her at Canton on the way to Swindon for withdrawal, and I've assumed that this infers an expired boiler certificate and a previous overhaul/boiler replacement in 1951, which extrapolates to 1944 for my period.  This could all fall apart if the loco had spent time in storage at Tondu and was towed to Swindon dead; the extrapolations for this 1929 built loco take it back to 1930, though, close enough for jazz...

 

A lot of South Wales locos were stored out of service for several years during the 1930s depression as there was no work for them; in these cases the boiler certificates were suspended for the duration of the storage period subject to a hydraulic test when they came into traffic, at which time the clock was restarted on the boiler certificate.  Shooting my theory down in flames!  Locos may also be delayed at Swindon awaiting works space, which again disrupts my ordered imagined world of regular overhauls at set periods.

 

I'm guesstimating some other aspects of this loco, including a boiler without a top feed and possibly 'Grotesque' script G W R initials indicating a Caerphilly wartime overhaul.  If these assumptions turn out to be incorrect, I can either rectify or find another Tondu 57xx from the period that is.

[Miss Prism]

6 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

There is a 1958 photo of her at Canton on the way to Swindon for withdrawal, and I've assumed that this infers an expired boiler certificate and a previous overhaul/boiler replacement in 1951

 

There could be a number of reasons for a loco to be withdrawn. An expiring boiler certificate (whatever time measure Swindon used for that, if indeed it used any time measure for it) shouldn't necessarily be claimed as the cause.

 

For the larger  express locos, which is the subject matter of this thread, visits to the works were more often than the smaller tanks, typically every two to three years. Most of such visits would probably command a repaint, or a partial repaint, but not always. Furthermore, what appears on the side of the tender is no indication as to when the loco in front of it got its last repaint.

 

[jim.snowdon]

I'm curious as to where this concept of boiler certificates and BoT Inspectors has come from. Certainly, time limited certificates are now the requirement for steam locomotive boilers today, which essentially translates to preserved and new build locomotives. But, from what I have gleaned from the ORR's own website and the background to the current regulations, until the tail end of the last century, the legal requirements for the testing and inspection of pressure vessels were contained in the Factories Acts. Steam locomotives, other than those used wholly within industrial premises (which included railway workshops) were outside of the Factories Act and, as far as I can see, were not actually subject to any legal requirements in regard to testing. The railways, and how they conducted their activities were, however, under the oversight of the BoT, later HM, Railway Inspectorate and generally complied with the recommendations of the Railway Inspectors. Recourse to legislation was rare and normally confined to matters where the railways were being tardy in implementing recommendations, the 1889 Regulation of Railways Act being a classic example. That meant that the railways were responsible for their own rules as regards the inspection and maintenance of their boilers. Once the enlightened railways moved off the principle of simply calling locomotives in to keep the workshops busy, and went over to condition-based overhaul, it was up to the company Boiler Inspectors as to when a locomotive boiler was deemed to require workshops, just as the Mechanical Inspectors considered the mechanical condition of the locomotive.

 

Jim

[Steamport Southport]

When I played with them in the 1980s and 1990s they needed a dry test/inspection, a hydraulic test and a steam test yearly. That is as well as the seven year boiler certificate.

 

 

 

Jason

[jim.snowdon]

3 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

When I played with them in the 1980s and 1990s they needed a dry test/inspection, a hydraulic test and a steam test yearly. That is as well as the seven year boiler certificate.

 

 

 

Jason

Yes, but by then you were well into the era of preservation and locomotives being maintained, in the legal sense, by amateurs. HMRI realised that with the rise of the preservation movement, there was a gap in the legislative requirements for these boilers.

 

Jim