5972 Liveries

[Hilux5972]

Ok so from what I can gather the main liveries that were used on Halls from 1937 onwards would be as follows. 

 

Lined Green, Shirtbutton emblem

Unlined Green, GWR

Unlined Black, GWR

Unlined Black, G(c)W

Unlined Green, G(c)W

Lined Black, Early Emblem

Lined Green, Early Emblem

Lined Green, Late Crest

 

Would that be a roughly accurate list? 

Edited September 19, 2019 by Hilux5972
Correction

[Nick Gough]

Halls had lining with the 'shirtbutton' livery.

[Miss Prism]

Lined green, G(c)W, for new Modified Halls

 

[Hilux5972]

9 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Lined green, G(c)W, for new Modified Halls

 

So would original Halls be lined with the G(c)W as well or only the Modified?

[Miss Prism]

3 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

So would original Halls be lined with the G(c)W as well or only the Modified?

 

Apparently only the new Modified Halls (so presumably only 6971-90).

 

Edited September 18, 2019 by Miss Prism

[jim.snowdon]

2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Apparently only the new Modified Halls (so presumably only 6971-90).

 

Not so, at least according to the 1978 edition of the HMRS' Great Western Way. The first batch of Halls, at least, would have appeared in lined green with the full Great (CoA) Western. Post 1934 any new build or overhauled locomotives would have got the monogram  instead of the full lettering.

 

Any repaints between 1942 and 1945 would have been black with G W R on the tenders, and any done between 1945 and 1948 would have been in lined green with G (CoA) W. (Named locos were lined, un-named ones were not.)

 

The probability is that for a short period in 1948 locos were turned out in lined green but with the GW style British Railways lettering before the workshops started applying the "proper" BR lined black with the early totem.

 

Locomotives would not normally get repainted until they passed through heavy overhaul, so there would have been a significant overlap in styles. Given the relatively short period for which the GW wartime black livery was in force, it is probable that significant numbers of locomotives never received it, going straight from the pre-war green + monogram to the post-war green + G (CoA) W. Similarly, some will have gone straight from GWR black to BR black without reverting to lined green.

 

(CoA) = Coat of Arms (not the earlier Garter crest)

 

Jim

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

Not so, at least according to the 1978 edition of the HMRS' Great Western Way. The first batch of Halls, at least, would have appeared in lined green with the full Great (CoA) Western. Post 1934 any new build or overhauled locomotives would have got the monogram  instead of the full lettering.

 

Any repaints between 1942 and 1945 would have been black with G W R on the tenders, and any done between 1945 and 1948 would have been in lined green with G (CoA) W. (Named locos were lined, un-named ones were not.)

 

The probability is that for a short period in 1948 locos were turned out in lined green but with the GW style British Railways lettering before the workshops started applying the "proper" BR lined black with the early totem.

 

Locomotives would not normally get repainted until they passed through heavy overhaul, so there would have been a significant overlap in styles. Given the relatively short period for which the GW wartime black livery was in force, it is probable that significant numbers of locomotives never received it, going straight from the pre-war green + monogram to the post-war green + G (CoA) W. Similarly, some will have gone straight from GWR black to BR black without reverting to lined green.

 

(CoA) = Coat of Arms (not the earlier Garter crest)

 

Jim

As well as the lined green 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' in Egyptian Serif 1920s style GW livery used from 1/1/48 to 31/5/48, there was a 1/6/48-31/3/49 period during which Halls were turned out in lined black LNWR style BR mixed traffic livery with 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' lettering in Gill Sans, with red backed number and name plates.  From 1st April '49, the livery was LNWR style lined black BR mixed traffic with the unicycling lion emblem.  The red backed name and number plates were replaced by black backed in, IIRC, 1951 and the next livery change was in 1956, when lined green was re-introduced for Halls.  The 'ferret and dartboard' totem was used from 1958.

 

The background to this is that BR had not formulated either standard liveries or lettering styles at 1/1/48, and instructed workshops to turn out locos in the livery they had been using before but with BRITISH RAILWAYS  lettering to denote ownership.  By the end of May, the new liveries had been decided on as had the Gill Sans lettering, and these were applied from 1/6/48-31/3/49.

 

So, in 1950, it would have been possible to see Halls in austerity black, post austerity GWR lined green, early BR lined green with Egyptian Serif lettering, lined black with Gill Sans lettering, and lined black with the unicycling lion.

[Marshall5]

3 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

 

 

Any repaints between 1942 and 1945 would have been black with G W R on the tenders, and any done between 1945 and 1948 would have been in lined green with G (CoA) W. (Named locos were lined, un-named ones were not.)

 

 

 

Jim

Sorry to disagree Jim but some named classes such as Granges and Manors were never lined in G.W. days.

Ray.

[Hilux5972]

8 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

Not so, at least according to the 1978 edition of the HMRS' Great Western Way. The first batch of Halls, at least, would have appeared in lined green with the full Great (CoA) Western. Post 1934 any new build or overhauled locomotives would have got the monogram  instead of the full lettering.

 

Any repaints between 1942 and 1945 would have been black with G W R on the tenders, and any done between 1945 and 1948 would have been in lined green with G (CoA) W. (Named locos were lined, un-named ones were not.)

 

The probability is that for a short period in 1948 locos were turned out in lined green but with the GW style British Railways lettering before the workshops started applying the "proper" BR lined black with the early totem.

 

Locomotives would not normally get repainted until they passed through heavy overhaul, so there would have been a significant overlap in styles. Given the relatively short period for which the GW wartime black livery was in force, it is probable that significant numbers of locomotives never received it, going straight from the pre-war green + monogram to the post-war green + G (CoA) W. Similarly, some will have gone straight from GWR black to BR black without reverting to lined green.

 

(CoA) = Coat of Arms (not the earlier Garter crest)

 

Jim

 Now by naming something as (CoA) you are confusing the issue. Do you mean the G (crest) W style livery?

[jim.snowdon]

46 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

 Now by naming something as (CoA) you are confusing the issue. Do you mean the G (crest) W style livery?

I used the term only because I thought "crest" was ambiguous - did it mean the earlier version with the garter, or the later version with just just the London and Bristol coats of arms ? I am intentionally referring to the latter.

 

Jim

[Hilux5972]

5 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

I used the term only because I thought "crest" was ambiguous - did it mean the earlier version with the garter, or the later version with just just the London and Bristol coats of arms ? I am intentionally referring to the latter.

 

Jim

Considering the original list of liveries at the top of this page said Halls built from 1937 onwards, I would have thought it obvious I didn’t mean the Garter, which I would have called the Garter in any case. 

Edited September 19, 2019 by Hilux5972
Correction

[jim.snowdon]

We're a long way from the first post, and the obvious is not always obvious to someone else.

 

Jim

[Hilux5972]

The first post is at the top of this page, page 2, and when a date is given, it’s pretty obvious to everyone really. Regardless, the garter was well gone by 1937. 

[jim.snowdon]

Even the top of page 2 is a long way off the top of my screen, and we are getting more than a little pedantic. At least going back to the first Halls completes the picture, even if it it before the period you are interested in. Any reader can always discard information that is not relevant to them.

 

Jim

[Miss Prism]

Jim, bearing in mind the dictum from John Copsey et al of "The 1940s and early 1950s were perhaps the most disordered period ever encountered in terms of engine liveries", in respect of which Halls were lined or unlined between the end of WWII and 1 Jan 48, these threads are perhaps the most pertinent:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/91055-postwar-gwr-hall-liveries/

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/78283-re-painting-gwr-locos-during-ww2/

 

[Halls and Prairies]

On 16/09/2019 at 20:30, Halvarras said:

Just looked up a photo of 5972 taken from the 'black bridge' at Truro (my 2nd home in the late 60s!) preparing to depart on a down train, in Bradford Barton' s b&w album "Great Western Steam in Cornwall", page 34. Curious - loco' s cab side clearly indicates lined black, but tender appears unlined with "BRITISH RAILWAYS" in Egyptian serif lettering just visible - so is the tender black or green? Not my era of expertise I'm afraid (see above!) but hopefully worth a mention.

Sadly the photo is undated.

Neil

Photo itself is undated, but in “MORE Great Western Steam in Cornwall” is another similar view of 5972 from the same location, arriving into the station, dated 19th May 1956. The only thing is that the tender legend isn’t visible, due to angle as much as anything. Whilst we cannot categorically say that it was the same date, there are common factors and there is nothing to suggest that it isn’t. 

[bécasse]

May 1956 would have been very late for a tender in this livery but obviously not impossible. It strongly suggests to me that this wasn't the loco's allocated tender but an emergency replacement. On the other hand though, the loco was overhauled at Swindon in the summer of 1948 when its tender might well have been finished in this livery. It is just possible that this was a "pet" tender although I would have thought that unlikely with "BRITISH RAILWAYS" lettering even though it is in GWR style.

[Halls and Prairies]

I’ve acquired another photograph dated May 1956 with 5972 at Laira, loco in tatty BR lined black but with a tender in green with very faded lining and “British Railways” in Great Western style lettering. Difficult to see both separate sources both being wrong in the same way.

Edited November 26, 2022 by Halls and Prairies
Detail addition