Customising a RTR Brighton Atlantic

[Stoat's Nest]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi, I'm in the process of repainting Bachmann's LBSCR H1 Atlantic. It comes by default as No. 39 which, although put into revenue service by the 'Brighton line' in 1905/6, did not acquire its name 'La France' until 1913. Having looked at a number of photos of No. 39 and the other locos belonging to this batch (37-41) of H1's, I notice that they all seemed to have had their tenders inscribed with the letters: 'L B & S C R and not 'L B S C' as Bachmann has chosen. See photo of No. 38 taken in 1907 shown below. 

Douglas Marsh revised the company's lettering at sometime before 1913 and I want to model this Atlantic during the period between 1906 and 1910. The loco's number, painted directly on the cab side in large numerals, is also wrong for this period since all the photos I've seen show each number on a brass plate fixed to the cab side, as with earlier Brighton locos of the Stroudley and Billinton era.

 

I need to find a source of 4mm scale etched brass number plates to provide the correct 1/76 scale plates. An initial internet search hasn't proved fruitful so far. Does anyone know of a suitable supplier.  

 

The other thing that seems not quite right about the Bachmann loco is that the safety valve, just in front of the cab, is not the correct type: in contemporary photos the valve is more square than on Bachmann's offering(see photo attached). 

 

I believe that Transfers of the correct lettering style are available from EB Models (Ian MacCormac) and also include the right type of company logo for the driving wheel splashers as shown in the picture. When I tried to contact him through the email address on his EB site I got back an email undeliverable message, so I need a contact that actually works.

 

Vince

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by Stoat's Nest
additional photo

[Oldddudders]

I think you will find Ian MacCormac is a regular member of this forum. https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/profile/2173-ianmaccormac/

[Oldddudders]

As for the detailing on Bachmann's model, Bradley Vol 3 has a picture of No 40, undated, but wearing LBSC on the tender.The safety valves, as on the model, have the flared casing. Since it is also sporting an H2 chimney, it is obviously after your period, but supports the model's use of the simplified lettering on the tender at a later date. 

[Stoat's Nest]

Was the style of safety valve shown in both pictures patented and if so, did it have a specific name?

 

vince

[RFS]

Seems the locos may have acquired LBSC on their tenders at the same time as losing the cast number plates on the cab sides. See these photos on Mike Morant's web-site, in particular the first showing 37 in just this state. 

 

https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/LBSCR-tender-locomotives/LBSCR-H1/

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JamieR4489]

22 hours ago, Stoat's Nest said:

Was the style of safety valve shown in both pictures patented and if so, did it have a specific name?

 

vince

It looks like a ramsbottom safety valve to me.

 

Jamie

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, JamieR4489 said:

It looks like a ramsbottom safety valve to me.

 

Jamie

Bradley notes they were indeed "two Ramsbottom safety-valves, over the firebox, each of two columns and contained in a typical Doncaster flat-sided casing."

[Compound2632]

Bravo for wanting to push back against the RTR manufacturers' notion that pre-Grouping means the decade 1913-1922!

[Edwardian]

On 13/09/2019 at 17:01, Stoat's Nest said:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hi, I'm in the process of repainting Bachmann's LBSCR H1 Atlantic. It comes by default as No. 39 which, although put into revenue service by the 'Brighton line' in 1905/6, did not acquire its name 'La France' until 1913. Having looked at a number of photos of No. 39 and the other locos belonging to this batch (37-41) of H1's, I notice that they all seemed to have had their tenders inscribed with the letters: 'L B & S C R and not 'L B S C' as Bachmann has chosen. See photo of No. 38 taken in 1907 shown below. 

Douglas Marsh revised the company's lettering at sometime before 1913 and I want to model this Atlantic during the period between 1906 and 1910. The loco's number, painted directly on the cab side in large numerals, is also wrong for this period since all the photos I've seen show each number on a brass plate fixed to the cab side, as with earlier Brighton locos of the Stroudley and Billinton era.

 

I need to find a source of 4mm scale etched brass number plates to provide the correct 1/76 scale plates. An initial internet search hasn't proved fruitful so far. Does anyone know of a suitable supplier.  

 

The other thing that seems not quite right about the Bachmann loco is that the safety valve, just in front of the cab, is not the correct type: in contemporary photos the valve is more square than on Bachmann's offering(see photo attached). 

 

I believe that Transfers of the correct lettering style are available from EB Models (Ian MacCormac) and also include the right type of company logo for the driving wheel splashers as shown in the picture. When I tried to contact him through the email address on his EB site I got back an email undeliverable message, so I need a contact that actually works.

 

Vince

 

 

I believe that the ampersand was dropped from 1912 onward.  As you correctly point out, the loco was named La France in 1913.  The Bachmann model does not have bogie brakes, however, which feature in both your photographs, thus pushing the Bachmann model even further forward, to at least the 1914-16 period when, according to RCTS, the bogie brakes were removed from the class.

 

I seem to recall that the splasher initials also changed, IIRC, but I'd have to look that one up as I really cannot now recall the details of their evolution.

 

Good luck with the back-dating!

[Mikkel]

On 13/09/2019 at 18:01, Stoat's Nest said:

I need to find a source of 4mm scale etched brass number plates to provide the correct 1/76 scale plates. An initial internet search hasn't proved fruitful so far. Does anyone know of a suitable supplier.  

 

If you don't find an alternative option, Narrow Planet might be able to custom them for you. They already do LBSCR works plates, and have a range of standard 4mm numberplates from other pregrouping companies (they don't just do narrow gauge, though you'd be forgiven for thinking this), so they might be interested.

 

https://shop.narrowplanet.co.uk/products/npp-290?_pos=1&_sid=b16c732c0&_ss=r

 

[BlueLightning]

Hi Vince, 

 

I am planning on doing the same to my H1, and have all the parts ready. 

 

Ian MacCormac does the etched numberplates as well as the transfers and they are fantastic quality. 

 

He has been ill recently but is now on the mend and processing orders. His email is ianmaccormac@hotmail.com

 

Gary 

[Stoat's Nest]

Was the H1 style of safety valve shown in both pictures patented and if so, did it have a specific name? Without this particular piece of information it would make a search in say, Alan Gibson's list or Wizard models a protracted and very tedious business.

 

Also, for another project I would like to locate some 4mm scale Salter safety valves (the kind fitted to all the Terrier domes). Lastly, I'm looking for a source for a flat circular plinth-like base on which sits a small single safety valve/whistle, as on some early Billinton E series tanks and Stroudley's 'West Brighton' tank.  Actually it's been sitting under my nose all the time: EB models has a page on the E3 radial and they make a model of it complete with Salter safety valves and that single whistle sitting on its little plinth. I found two photos of the class both in Stroudley Goods green, one of them shows a spanking new, just outshopped Watersfield no. 457, probably photographed at Brighton. That photo's too big to load here, but the one below of Storrington will do, though the engine's starting to look a bit grimey.

 

 

vince

Edited September 16, 2019 by Stoat's Nest
correction

[BlueLightning]

Vince,

 

The safety valves for mine I planned on just cutting the lip off the top of the casing, other than that it all seems the same as the photos, including some others that I have.

 

I believe Gibson do (or did) the Foster safety valves in 4mm, I know I have seen etched ones available from somewhere before.

 

I have used spare whistles and domes with the top cut off to make the ones for early Billinton E tanks before. I couldn't tell you which ones I used to get the size correct, as I found them in the spares box, perhaps the spare dome that came in the old tooling Terrier detail pack? These can be had quite cheap on eBay

 

Gary

[RLWP]

34 minutes ago, Stoat's Nest said:

Was the H1 style of safety valve shown in both pictures patented and if so, did it have a specific name?

 

I doubt you could get a patent for two Ramsbottom safety valves side by side. Ramsbottom patented the original in 1855

 

Richard

[Stoat's Nest]

Thanks Richard and OldDudders, for the Ramsbottom info, now I know what to ask for.

 

As for the change of livery and safety valves Klaus Marx's LBSCR The Bennet Collection P.63 shows two H1's in the Brighton erecting shops stripped down and undergoing "their first major overhaul at Brighton. The date could well be 1910 .... ".  No. 39's number is visible and presumably the unidentifiable H1 behind was No.38. since it was delivered from Kitson earlier than 39 and therefore after 4 or 5 years needed servicing. Hazarding a guess,  they both had a new paint job in the latest livery version at this time, as well as revision of equipment such as safety valves

[BlueLightning]

It couldn't be 1910 that number 39 got the livery change and new safety valves, It still had the original valves, and Stroudley style number plate when it hauled the Royal Train on the 4th Feb 1912 (LBSCR Atlantics, Jeremy English P.27)

 

Gary

[Stoat's Nest]

Thanks BlueLightning.  That clears up that theory. So now between Feb 1912 and June 1913 when President Poincare of France paid his visit, No. 39 received a new set of driving splasher logos, lost its numberplate, was given its name, had the company letters on the tender repainted and a new safety valve fitted. We're getting closer.

[Stoat's Nest]

Just when I thought the La France connection was done I came across this photo to add to the mystery. A Billinton B2 (popularly known as Sirdars) or a B4 seen at Brighton station in Stroudley IEG around 1880-1905 -ish. Neither the name nor the number are on the list of B2's in Locos of the LBS&SCR 1839-1903 (Ed by  J. Christopher) so, I can't say when it entered service.  No idea when it lost its Stroudley colours to Marsh umber, or even if it was scrapped sometime after the photo was taken. Can't even be certain what its number is: If the picture is blown up really large there is only a slight hint that the brass numberplate might be No. 38. The paintwork looks in pretty good nick: look at the highly polished marks on the tender, so it may not have been in service long. The Brighton company had a habit of transferring loco numbers and putting older engines on the Duplicate List. Anyone know what the subsequent history of this loco was, what its number was, or even when the picture was taken?  Does anyone know which route the head code indicates?

 

Billinton B4 No. 54 'La France' at Brighton station August 1905.

 

vince

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2019 by Stoat's Nest

[Compound2632]

No. 54, originally named Empress, was named La France in the period 1905-8, presumably in connection with a state visit - see http://www.lbscr.org/Rolling-Stock/Locomotives/R.J.Billinton/B4.xhtml

 

Edited September 17, 2019 by Compound2632

[choo1choo]

3 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

No. 54, originally named Empress, was named La France in the period 1905-8, presumably in connection with a state visit - see http://www.lbscr.org/Rolling-Stock/Locomotives/R.J.Billinton/B4.xhtml

 

 

Further to the above..

 

No 54 ran as La France for only nine days in August 1905 when it worked the Royal Specials and other trains in connection with the Entente Cordial;e celebrations and the French Atlantic Fleet's courtesy visit to Portsmouth.

 

Sourced from Locomotives of the LBSCR..Vol. 3.

[Oldddudders]

From September 1906, 54 became Princess Royal, a name it retained until after Grouping.

[Compound2632]

Also, No. 54 was the engine that worked Queen Victoria's funeral train on 2 February 1901 - photo here.

[Stoat's Nest]

• Émile Loubet was French president at the time of the visit in 1905. No 54 was named La France during the period between August 1905, possibly from slightly earlier,  allowing for the new paint job for the loco, until September 1906 when it became Princess Royal, so it sported its temporary colour scheme for about a year. Thus, the photo at Brighton station could have been taken any time from the late summer 1905 to September 1906, though it looks like a fairly sunny day judging by the lighting conditions, so probably not in winter months. The carriage just behind the loco looks like ordinary suburban stock, not part of a Royal train.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Stoat's Nest

[Stoat's Nest]

There seemed to be quite a bit of variation in the decoration of H1s' wheel splashers. Here's No. 38 at Brighton with the Brighton's Coat of arms on both splashers. The bogie brakes have been removed and it wears the later style painted cab number and LBSCR on the tender. It has a square housing around the Ramsbottom safety valves. Any idea of the photo's date?

 

[burgundy]

On 15/09/2019 at 16:04, Stoat's Nest said:

 

Also, for another project I would like to locate some 4mm scale Salter safety valves (the kind fitted to all the Terrier domes). Lastly, I'm looking for a source for a flat circular plinth-like base on which sits a small single safety valve/whistle, as on some early Billinton E series tanks and Stroudley's 'West Brighton' tank.  Actually it's been sitting under my nose all the time: EB models has a page on the E3 radial and they make a model of it complete with Salter safety valves and that single whistle sitting on its little plinth. I found two photos of the class both in Stroudley Goods green, one of them shows a spanking new, just outshopped Watersfield no. 457, probably photographed at Brighton. That photo's too big to load here, but the one below of Storrington will do, though the engine's starting to look a bit grimey.

 

 

vince

 

Vince 

 

If you are planning to build an E3, the EBM kit is an excellent solution. This was my first etched brass kit (buffers still to be added when the photo was taken). 

If you need brass salter balances, Branchlines do them as part of their "Terrier upgrade" fittings. If you need non-standard lengths or configurations, then it is not difficult to cobble something up from brass wire and thin tube.

Best wishes

Eric