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Cofga

Ratio GWR 4-wheel paint scheme 1934-39

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On 16/10/2019 at 21:11, Cofga said:

There never seems to be an end to the questions these coaches bring up. I now have the cream paint on the side panels and am ready to start with the brown paint. However in looking at various photos and my Hornby corridor and B coaches there appears to be a dark band at or under the roofline. On some models it is black and others it is brown and of course in some it is not there at all. The liveries pages on the HWR modeling website doesn’t mention this band although it is present on several of the models shown there. So I turn to you for more of your sage advice on these models. Should it be included on the 4-wheel coaches? Should it be black or brown? How wide should it be? Here are photos of models showing the band under the roofline and a couple without.

 

 

 

64A22E99-F98A-4510-B60B-09E9CF092647.jpeg

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3025D01B-41E0-4F07-847E-3F23F49A1BE5.jpeg

 

One thing to remember is that coaches were typically repainted only when they went through the workshop for heavy maintenance.  This was typically every 5 to 7 years.  But by 1934 4 wheelers were at the end of life so were running until they broke for good, liveries lasted longer.  In 1927 the plain livery had just a single black line at the waist cream/brown boarder:

6FE69F57-BE77-4210-870B-131C77099694.png.bd1bdc21dfbb2835a09c72372140b02f.png

 

 In 1929 a gold line was added below the black line and a second black line added at the top of the side: 

9476640F-B450-466C-B25A-DACAF89579DC.png.cf1f77d79ee326f1097f57b7c172343d.png

 

In 1934 the GWR letters in the central waist panel and twin shield logo was replaced by the GWR rounded, but this livery was very rare as most 4 wheelers were not expected to last very long.  Instead they had been generally painted all over brown from 1933, possibly earlier.  Initially the all over brown had no logo, just GWR in the waist and Third was painted once or twice in the waist panels:

93A1F5D1-5284-4F95-8551-C0114AEA17D4.png.011dc288472d289734b97b15d552aa1e.png

From 1934 the rounded was used:

332E5418-9120-4C0F-AE5F-E35C725D6200.png.baf6b77fdbca3b313ee172754f54ce08.png

Edited by Penrhos1920
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Well, I finally got this project wrapped up and shot some photos today. I want to thank all of you who provided guidance on this subject. Although Penrhos was late to the table I had already found his excellent website and used a lot of his information too. The coach numbers were gleaned from his lists. Al Reynolds (Barry Ten) was kind enough to provide me with some color swatches of various GWR paints and I color matched using those as well as some Hornby coaches and locos. At this point I have only applied light weathering but did go a little heavy on the coach roofs.

 

I added 1.5 ozs to each car and they track a lot better that way . The wheelsets included with the kits were nice but were out of round and made the cars wobble a bit so I replaced them with Hornby sets and the wobble went away. I also cut and installed compartment walls out of black styrene sheet to lessen some of the see through effect. I installed Kadee couplers so they are compatible with my under track magnets. Other than that the cars are right out of the Ratio box. 
 

First, is a shot of the entire train being pulled by GWR 6424. Then the composite coach, all third, and finally the brake third. I am still learning about loading images so hopefully these will post in the order I listed them but if not I am sure you can figure it out.

 

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1422FFC8-32C3-443C-9C7A-122E3C03472A.jpeg

Edited by Cofga
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@Penrhos1920's photos do show that in the simplified liveries that still had cream above the waist, the bolection moldings to the fixed quarter-lights were still a darker colour - varnished wood or painted the same colour as the droplights?

 

Sorry!

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I have seen them modeled with no color at all on the fixed or droplights, with red or brown lining on the droplights, and with brown or red color on the fixed and droplights. Unfortunately I never could locate photos of these cars in this specific paint scheme for the 1930s so went ahead with them as shown. This way they are a match for my Hornby coaches and autocoaches in the same paint scheme.

Edited by Cofga

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1 hour ago, Cofga said:

 

 The wheelsets included with the kits were nice but were out of round and made the cars wobble a bit so I replaced them with Hornby sets and the wobble went away.

 

I've got 6* in nearly finished state (3 new & 3 refurbished S/H) and none of the wheels are out of true, they are Alan Gibson's Mansell wheels as supplied and are highly regarded for their quality.

You must have had some dud wheels from somewhere.:scratchhead:

 

*I've also got another with Shirescenes sides for a 4 wheel siphon, not yet made up.

 

I think the all over brown suits the short carriages and the brake in your photo looks really nice.

 

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9 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

the bolection moldings to the fixed quarter-lights were still a darker colour - varnished wood or painted the same colour as the droplights?

 

One of the problems with the official paint schemes was that they did not address features that were no longer present in contemporary production, hence there is no mention of bolections for post-1914 stock. Bolections continued to be painted, as indicated in Penhros' pics above, in 'mahogany colour' for the post-1922 and post-1928 eras. Droplights were in the same colour.

 

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Sorry the Penrhos train is running late again.  Here are two new webpages about liveries specifically aimed at older GWR coaches.  The second page really does require a decent size screen, although it’s not too bad on an iPad.  They’re not added to the menus yet and I haven’t been able to test the second page on all browsers.

http://www.penrhos.me.uk/Liveries.shtml

http://www.penrhos.me.uk/Liveries2.shtml

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Penrhos, those are a really nice addition to the website and seem to answer a lot of questions. You need to show these to the guys at Hornby that are in charge of their paint jobs.

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I am using Safari on an iPad. I was able, to pinch in and move between the various time periods without any problems.

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On 16/12/2019 at 18:18, melmerby said:

I've got 6* in nearly finished state (3 new & 3 refurbished S/H) and none of the wheels are out of true, they are Alan Gibson's Mansell wheels as supplied and are highly regarded for their quality.

You must have had some dud wheels from somewhere.:scratchhead:

 

*I've also got another with Shirescenes sides for a 4 wheel siphon, not yet made up.

 

I think the all over brown suits the short carriages and the brake in your photo looks really nice.

 

Nope, mine came right out of new packages from Hattons. I wanted to replace them anyway due to the magnetic effect when run over magnets placed under the rails for Kadee operation. The Mansell  wheels are all steel whereas on the Hornby, only the axle is and it is not big enough to be a factor. I too like the brown brake third best but the others add to the variety and keep the eye busy. The brown siphon will also factor into the color mix and add interest. 

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3 minutes ago, Cofga said:

Nope, mine came right out of new packages from Hattons. I wanted to replace them anyway due to the magnetic effect when run over magnets placed under the rails for Kadee operation. The Mansell  wheels are all steel whereas on the Hornby, only the axle is and it is not big enough to be a factor. I too like the brown brake third best but the others add to the variety and keep the eye busy. The brown siphon will also factor into the color mix and add interest. 

My three new ones were purchased recently and came with metal tyred plastic Mansells. The latest unbuilt one purchased in the last few months is the same.

The three old ones had one piece plastic wheels and axles which I have replaced with Alan Gibson's which are identical to what I have had in all the new purchases.

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Got to agree that the wheels out of the packet are pretty bad with these kits. I've built 8 of these and had to replace the wheels on every single one. They are plastic wheels with steel tyres and axles, they slip on the axles and go out of gauge quite easily. Some were out of gauge straight from the box, some went after a single run round the layout. 

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28 minutes ago, melmerby said:

My three new ones were purchased recently and came with metal tyred plastic Mansells. The latest unbuilt one purchased in the last few months is the same.

The three old ones had one piece plastic wheels and axles which I have replaced with Alan Gibson's which are identical to what I have had in all the new purchases.

 

Yep. My last ones had standard Gibson wheels.

 

 

 

 

 

Possibly depends on what colour box you got. If they were yellow they were probably stocks left over from when Norman Hatton ran it. :lol:

 

I would check your curves, the carriages themselves don't like anything severe ISTR. So if you have anything less than a Radius 3 they might struggle.

 

 

 

 

Jason

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25 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Yep. My last ones had standard Gibson wheels.

 

 

 

 

 

Possibly depends on what colour box you got. If they were yellow they were probably stocks left over from when Norman Hatton ran it. :lol:

 

I would check your curves, the carriages themselves don't like anything severe ISTR. So if you have anything less than a Radius 3 they might struggle.

 

 

 

 

Jason

30" to inf, whatever that is in Radius numbers!

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1 minute ago, melmerby said:

30" to inf, whatever that is in Radius numbers!

 

Your curves are probably fine.

 

I was also referring to the other post below of them going out of gauge. I've never had that problem with Gibson's, even the "rusty" batch I received a few years ago (which cleaned up pretty well with a fibreglass pen TBF). My wheels of choice now.

 

 

 

Jason

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I found that even on the 36” radius curves on my HO layout the friction from the wheel flanges on the rail heads  is enough to frustrate my Dean’s Goods 0-6-0 on a slight grade but my 0-6-0PTs can pull them. The widely spaced, fixed wheelsets don’t follow the curve like boggie mounted wheels do. On a flat there is no issue and the shunting layout I am planning will have essentially no curves or grades.

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