Revolution Class 313 and 314 in N

[Revolution Mike]

Correct - you can't cover 23 years but you can cover 18 years of that period.

 

We're not offering 7 plus core liveries of the 313 - we're offering 5 as I've explained (plus possibly the NR yellow set). I've also explained why it isn't just about the number of liveries but about how many it is realistic to sell per livery ie if we sell say 300 Strathclyde Orange and 300 Scotrail we meet MoQs, if we sell 200 Orange, 200 Carmine & Cream, 200 Scotrail we don't meet MoQs so no 314s get made.

 

We've explained why we don't want to get into the same situation as the 320/321 liveries - it was a mess for customers and for us which we don't want to replicate. That was a harsh lesson for us that we don't intend to ignore.

 

As I said we're going round in circles now. I'm sorry that we can't make every livery or even versions of liveries that everyone wants but it just is not feasible!

 

Cheers Mike

 

[Legend]

Understand where guys are coming from .

 

Only thing I would say is you can run 2*3 car sets Orange/black and Crimson/cream  but not Orange/Black and Spotrail. 
 

I’m an OO modeller but I’m wondering if this could start a small n layout , intensive Glasgow commuter layout with a few freight trains . Could be interesting to operate . 

[scottystitch]

9 hours ago, Ben A said:

 

 

Yes, quite possibly.  I was surprised, I admit, but after finding a few like that I just assumed they’d lasted longer than I previously thought.

 

We’re happy to accept that Strathclyde didn’t last beyond 2006.  So yes, there is a gap! But the reality is that we know offering too many choices will do more harm than good.   Really appreciate your comments, and I do understand your frustration: as you pointed out, my own favourite 321 didn’t make the cut either!

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

Thanks for the reply

 

Best

 

Scott.

[The Pilotman]

13 hours ago, red death said:

Seriously prove me wrong - find 250-300 sales of Carmine and Cream and we'll produce it!

That sounds like a very reasonable proposal to me. Having already failed to get enough orders for a same-era EMU in this livery it appears that Revolution don’t want to waste their time and effort going down that road again and who can blame them? This isn’t their main job, don’t forget. Going on what @Ben A and @red death have written, my hunch is that orders for the C&C Class 320 were a long way short of what was required. 

So Carmine and Cream fans, if you want this version made it looks like you will have to put the work in and/or take some of the risk upon yourselves. A few things came to mind while I was out with the dog this morning. Online surveys are very easy to arrange these days and there are multiple Internet forums to promulgate your aims and get supporters. Perhaps a collaboration with a model railway retailer is possible? Is there someone among you willing and able to take the financial risk on themselves and order the minimum order quantity? Perhaps several of you could do so as some sort of cooperative venture. I’m sure there are other possibilities to make this happen. The ball is in your court. 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Western Aviator

[Ilambie]

54 minutes ago, Legend said:

Understand where guys are coming from .

 

Only thing I would say is you can run 2*3 car sets Orange/black and Crimson/cream  but not Orange/Black and Spotrail. 
 

I’m an OO modeller but I’m wondering if this could start a small n layout , intensive Glasgow commuter layout with a few freight trains . Could be interesting to operate . 

Have a look at Hallside in the layout topics. Its 00, however with the stock your talking about something like that would be brilliant in N.

[Adam1701D]

23 hours ago, JR_P said:

Yes and yes 

Soooo....with the addition of a Trailer Second, you could do a 315. That could also pave the way for a 507/508.

 

Probably wishful thinking, as it would probably be hard to justify financially. A 508 could be popular with Southern Region and Merseyside modellers with a lot of "Rule 1" potential.

[Revolution Ben]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

Understand where guys are coming from .

 

Only thing I would say is you can run 2*3 car sets Orange/black and Crimson/cream  but not Orange/Black and Spotrail. 
 

I’m an OO modeller but I’m wondering if this could start a small n layout , intensive Glasgow commuter layout with a few freight trains . Could be interesting to operate . 

 

Yinories?

 

I'll get me coat.  Again.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[ash39]

1 hour ago, Western Aviator said:

That sounds like a very reasonable proposal to me. Having already failed to get enough orders for a same-era EMU in this livery it appears that Revolution don’t want to waste their time and effort going down that road again and who can blame them? This isn’t their main job, don’t forget. Going on what @Ben A and @red death have written, my hunch is that orders for the C&C Class 320 were a long way short of what was required. 

So Carmine and Cream fans, if you want this version made it looks like you will have to put the work in and/or take some of the risk upon yourselves. A few things came to mind while I was out with the dog this morning. Online surveys are very easy to arrange these days and there are multiple Internet forums to promulgate your aims and get supporters. Perhaps a collaboration with a model railway retailer is possible? Is there someone among you willing and able to take the financial risk on themselves and order the minimum order quantity? Perhaps several of you could do so as some sort of cooperative venture. I’m sure there are other possibilities to make this happen. The ball is in your court. 

 

 

You're missing the point. The 320's were refurbished pretty quickly and C&C didn't last long into the ScotRail era. The 314's lasted right up until last year and arguably you can't really accurately represent that era without C&C. 

 

I'm not personally bothered enough to go to the lengths you're suggesting, I just wanted to make the point that the decision has been partially made based on 320 data which is not representative at all (as you can see by the number of comments over the last couple of pages).

 

I'm not going to lose any sleep over it but the hobby does frustrate me at times, always seems to be the mundane stuff that gets forgotten and the one off's and quirky liveries get done first. 

 

[The Pilotman]

22 hours ago, ash39 said:

 

 

You're missing the point. The 320's were refurbished pretty quickly and C&C didn't last long into the ScotRail era. The 314's lasted right up until last year and arguably you can't really accurately represent that era without C&C. 

 

I'm not personally bothered enough to go to the lengths you're suggesting, I just wanted to make the point that the decision has been partially made based on 320 data which is not representative at all (as you can see by the number of comments over the last couple of pages).

 

I'm not going to lose any sleep over it but the hobby does frustrate me at times, always seems to be the mundane stuff that gets forgotten and the one off's and quirky liveries get done first. 

 

Maybe I am missing the point but then I know very little about these units and these particular models are of no use to me. I don’t want to get embroiled in an argument about the relative merits of different liveries. I was merely trying to point out that @red death has offered you (by which I mean the modellers who want a Carmine and Cream Class 314 model in N gauge) a means for getting the model that you want produced. All you have to do is prove the demand for one. You yourself may not be bothered enough to do anything (apart from write on this thread) to get the model produced but others may well be and I was only putting a few ideas out there to help make it happen. Yes, there have been lots of comments about wanting this unit/livery/scale combination but only from four different people so far. If it really is the case that lots of people would buy this model and that Revolution are making a mistake by not offering it, it shouldn’t be difficult to prove that. If there isn’t the demand that some people think there is, well, there’s always the paintbrush or spray gun.

Edited February 26, 2021 by Western Aviator

[ash39]

I think the argument I'm trying to make transcends this particular case to be honest. Manufacturers consistently produce 'celebrity' and one off liveries because they know they can sell the batch quickly - which makes complete commercial sense. However I think what gets overlooked sometimes is the more mundane, widespread liveries that are more useful might actually lead to more sales across the range as it allows you to build up a selection of models to model a certain area and period of time.

 

 

 

 

[scottystitch]

5 minutes ago, Western Aviator said:

Maybe I am missing the point but then I know very little about these units and these particular models are of no use to me. I don’t want to get embroiled in an argument about the relative merits of different liveries. I was merely trying to point out that @red death has offered you (by which I mean the modellers who want a Carmine and Cream Class 314 model in N gauge) a means for getting the model that you want produced. All you have to do is prove the demand for one. You yourself may not bothered enough to do anything (apart from write on this thread) to get the model produced but others may well be and I was only putting a few ideas out there to help make it happen. Yes, there have been lots of comments about wanting this unit/livery/scale combination but only from four different people so far. If it really is the case that lots of people would buy this model and that Revolution are making a mistake by not offering it, it shouldn’t be difficult to prove that. If there isn’t the demand that some people think there is, well, there’s always the paintbrush or spray gun.

 

The whole reasoning behind my postings were to do with Revolution's justification for not doing C&C, i.e. that Stratchlyde Orange livery lasted into the early 2010s.  They've now conceded that what that justification was based on is more than likely incorrect.  But they're not going to change their mind, which is fine, so for me, the matter is closed and everything remains civil.  I stated quite clearly this wasn't a "why the hell aren't you doing the livery I want?!" issue.

 

As it turns out I probably am bothered enough to want to try and prove there is demand, but if you think it isn't difficult to prove 300 people want one, or 150 want two, then I recommend you try it (maybe you have, I don't know). I have, twice (unrelated to this hobby), and it really isn't as simple as it seems.  Which is why I said I couldn't do what Ben and MIke do.

 

I build my own benchwork, I cut and assemble my own baseboards, I build my own track (admittedly from Finetrax Kits), I build and paint some of my own rolling stock, I dabble with etched chassis and I weather my wagons.  I think I do my fare share of "real" modelling.  You'll perhaps forgive me if I can't find the time, energy and enthusiasm to also strip and repaint a brand new £250 3-car train.

 

I appreciate your post is meant in the best of spirits, but it's not always as simple as that.

 

Best

 

Scott.

[grahame]

4 minutes ago, ash39 said:

I think the argument I'm trying to make transcends this particular case to be honest. Manufacturers consistently produce 'celebrity' and one off liveries because they know they can sell the batch quickly - which makes complete commercial sense. However I think what gets overlooked sometimes is the more mundane, widespread liveries that are more useful might actually lead to more sales across the range as it allows you to build up a selection of models to model a certain area and period of time.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, manufacturers have always picked weird and wacky liveries, mainly on the hope it sells well and quickly (although that hasn't always been the case - remember that one off Farish class 50 in the LMS maroon stripey livery?) 

 

However, Revolution do tend to offer a reasonably extensive initial choice although some don't make the cut when final orders are totalled. And, as already mentioned and suggested, there is an opportunity to 'prove' that a more mundane livery will sell by demonstrating and documenting a sufficient real demand for it.

 

I'm all for more regular and long lived liveries and supportive of such choice, but unfortunately not a class 314 in C&C - that's too far out there for me. Others, of course, will have a different view. 

 

 

[The Pilotman]

Some interesting points raised. The bottom line is that Revolution need to be convinced that this version is worth doing. At the moment they are not. 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Western Aviator

[nickb4141]

I think it’s now clear that Revolution won’t entertain the idea of doing a Carmine & Cream 314 and unfortunately seemed to have based this on sales of the 320, which as has been said many times, is not a fair comparison. 

Mike did say prove the demand for 250-300 orders, but doesn’t want to add to the orders as is worried people will only choose one livery and none will meet the required threshold.
 

Maybe an enterprising retailer might offer this as an exclusive? C&M Models immediately springs to mind, as they have a history of commissioning Scottish themed models. They were very astute in doing a Saltire liveried class 156 DMU, which sold out very quickly and commands £200 plus price’s secondhand on eBay. They might recognise the demand for such a core livery and do very well from it. 

The fact that an N gauge emu is attracting so many comments on here (normally days/weeks pass with no posts on threads,) suggests they may be something in what we’re all saying! 

 

C&M are you reading this?

[Legend]

9 hours ago, nickb4141 said:

I think it’s now clear that Revolution won’t entertain the idea of doing a Carmine & Cream 314 and unfortunately seemed to have based this on sales of the 320, which as has been said many times, is not a fair comparison. 

Mike did say prove the demand for 250-300 orders, but doesn’t want to add to the orders as is worried people will only choose one livery and none will meet the required threshold.
 

Maybe an enterprising retailer might offer this as an exclusive? C&M Models immediately springs to mind, as they have a history of commissioning Scottish themed models. They were very astute in doing a Saltire liveried class 156 DMU, which sold out very quickly and commands £200 plus price’s secondhand on eBay. They might recognise the demand for such a core livery and do very well from it. 

The fact that an N gauge emu is attracting so many comments on here (normally days/weeks pass with no posts on threads,) suggests they may be something in what we’re all saying! 

 

C&M are you reading this?

 

But I do get the point from the Revolution guys that there is likely to be a finite demand for 314s in no matter what livery . This is a small class of units (16) who were restricted to West Central Scotland  compared to the much larger 313 class that had a fair geographical spread , now of course on the Southern . I get that introducing a new variant of 314 might just split orders over three instead of two liveries  which means none make the cut .   The only point of disagreement I have is that I think C&C is much more widespread and useful than Spotrail , but I concede thats probably the more exciting or eye catching livery . Would that make it more successful ? I'm not sure comparisons to the 320 are entirely appropriate. The Revolution guys think yes and they are the ones risking money !

 

You know we are very spoiled . Years ago you might just have got one livery which stayed in catalogue for years . I suppose if you really want C&C you can repaint . Also gives opportunity for after sales support eg Decals 

 

As to special commissions , well that doesn't really solve the problem of finite demand , it just means demand is split between Revolution , the Commissioner .  You are also asking the Commisioner to take the risk .  There isn't an obvious Commissioner as model shops in West Central Scotland are few and far between, I can only think of two small ones that don't keep much stock of existing ranges  never mind contracting for 300 units . C&M in Carlisle, maybe , but I'd point out Scotrail 156s are fairly common in Carlisle but 314s not . So you would have to look for an out of area Commissioner. Nt sure anyone would take that on , especially as likely to be cash strapped as a result of Covid . 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Legend

[ash39]

I might be in the minority, in which case this entire post is moot, but I tend to buy models based on what else is available to go with it. I'd love to model a busy commuter station on the south ECML and a couple of First Capital Connect 313's would be perfect for this, but without a contemporary Class 91/Mk4 it is not much use. I'm not hugely familiar with the Southern Region, but I believe a similar case exists there as the Electrostar family are hugely widespread but as yet not available in any scale.

 

For those reasons the 314's are appealing to me as you could model a southern Glasgow area really well with pretty much everything except the 318 and 380 available. The thing I'm finding hard to get my head around is most of the stock you would need is in Revolution's portfolio (92, Pendolino, Mk5 Sleeper, 320), so surely it makes sense to offer the livery which has the best synergy with the rest of the range and leads to cross sales, rather than the Strathcylde Orange which pre-dates a lot of the above.

[Revolution Mike]

2 minutes ago, ash39 said:

The thing I'm finding hard to get my head around is most of the stock you would need is in Revolution's portfolio (92, Pendolino, Mk5 Sleeper, 320), so surely it makes sense to offer the livery which has the best synergy with the rest of the range and leads to cross sales, rather than the Strathcylde Orange which pre-dates a lot of the above.

 

Strathclyde Orange coincided with the Pendolinos and our Strathclyde 320s. 

The Scotrail 314s (which also lived with the 92s, Pendolinos, Mk5s, 320s). 211 and 212 were in Scotrail by end of 2011, 203 by early 2012 at the latest.

 

For the transition from C&C to Scotrail exactly the same argument can be made for the 320s as the 314s ie there is a gap in our liveries (as there is with many choices we have to make). The only difference is that all of the 320s went into Scotrail whereas only 5 of 15 314s did.

 

Cheers Mike

[nickb4141]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

 

But I do get the point from the Revolution guys that there is likely to be a finite demand for 314s in no matter what livery . This is a small class of units (15) who were restricted to West Central Scotland  compared to the much larger 313 class that had a fair geographical spread , now of course on the Southern . I get that introducing a new variant of 314 might just split orders over three instead of two liveries  which means none make the cut .   The only point of disagreement I have is that I think C&C is much more widespread and useful than Spotrail , but I concede thats probably the more exciting or eye catching livery . Would that make it more successful ? I'm not sure comparisons to the 320 are entirely appropriate. The Revolution guys think yes and they are the ones risking money !

 

You know we are very spoiled . Years ago you might just have got one livery which stayed in catalogue for years . I suppose if you really want C&C you can repaint . Also gives opportunity for after sales support eg Decals 

 

As to special commissions , well that doesn't really solve the problem of finite demand , it just means demand is split between Revolution , the Commissioner .  You are also asking the Commisioner to take the risk .  There isn't an obvious Commissioner as model shops in West Central Scotland are few and far between, I can only think of two small ones that don't keep much stock of existing ranges  never mind contracting for 300 units . C&M in Carlisle, maybe , but I'd point out Scotrail 156s are fairly common in Carlisle but 314s not . So you would have to look for an out of area Commissioner. Nt sure anyone would take that on , especially as likely to be cash strapped as a result of Covid . 

I think the Model Railway business has boomed in Covid, witness all the items out of stock in the last year, so I don’t think those retailers who would be in a position to commission exclusives are exactly ‘cash-strapped’ at the moment and it hasn’t stopped  exclusives being commissioned for the class 313. Yes, the 314 is probably not going to be as popular as the 313’s, but the point is C&C livery is in effect the ‘BR Blue’ of the class 314’s lifespan, so it is a core livery with an extremely long (especially in days of Privitisation) lifespan, so it is more commercial proposition than maybe some of the fringe liveries being offered for the 313 (I’ll be amazed for example, if the ‘Heritage’ Blue and grey meets the MOQ). 
 

Don’t really understand your point about C&M and class 156’s being local and 314’s not? That suggests people only model what is in the locality of their model shop? I live in Kent, but chose to model the Glasgow area, as a lot of items (including several of Revolution’s are available). There are other retailers such as Rails, Kernow, Hattons and Gaugemaster who could also commission, but I thought of C&M as they tend to commission Scottish themed items (even though they are in England!  )

[woodenhead]

@nickb4141 but this is all based on your belief that the C&C livery would sell, RevolutioN are in the position of understanding the market better - yours is based on your own bias for such a model versus theirs which is based on expressions of interest and the impact spreading yourself too thin has on sales.

 

N gauge special commissions are not exactly common - Kernow did some but they stick to things that would be seen in the Southwest so you can count them out, Rails tends to focus on things they can sell or NRM specials and generally it is OO or O, Hattons sells it's own models and Gaugemaster still haven't delivered the Dapol 73 specials so a 314 would be well down any plans if at all.

 

So that leaves C&M and one other you haven't mentioned and very much in the sphere of commissions - KMS Railtech.  I am sure RevolutioN would happily supply either shop with a special commission, once they know that it wouldn't leave them with a stack of unsold 314s of their own. 

 

Perhaps then on  a second run?

[njee20]

  

1 hour ago, nickb4141 said:

Don’t really understand your point about C&M and class 156’s being local and 314’s not? That suggests people only model what is in the locality of their model shop? I live in Kent, but chose to model the Glasgow area, as a lot of items (including several of Revolution’s are available). There are other retailers such as Rails, Kernow, Hattons and Gaugemaster who could also commission, but I thought of C&M as they tend to commission Scottish themed items (even though they are in England!  )

 

What's not to understand - Scotrail 156s visit Carlisle, but 314s don't? Most commissioning retailers will commission things relevant to them - Kernow do lots of prototypes relevant to the South West (not solely, admittedly), C&M focus on stuff relevant to their locale. That's very different to what people model, where I agree that I suspect a minority of people actually model what's local to them.

 

I think your comment that Revolution "won't entertain" doing C&C is misplaced; Mike has said that if you can prove the demand is there then they will do it. They have more experience and data available that anyone here, so someone saying, in an increasingly exasperated tone "why aren't you doing it?" isn't going to help. Proving the market is there (or convincing a retailer) will.

Edited February 25, 2021 by njee20

[Adam1701D]

By an astonishing co-incidence, I've just sent off a set of Class 314 C&C vinyls in OO to a customer. They do look very smart indeed and will easily scale down...

[ash39]

So are Revolution basically a large manufacturer now?  

 

They started out by proving the business case for the Pendolino because none of the established manufacturers were touching it. 

 

Now you're saying we, at consumer level, have to prove the business case for a model? I thought that was Revolutions MO. Find out what modellers want and produce it. 

[darrel]

Just my tuppence worth. I model 00 gauge so won't be buying the model. However I used to model in N and would have bought all 3 class 314 models. Same if it was to be done in 00 gauge (hint hint)

[grahame]

3 minutes ago, ash39 said:

So are Revolution basically a large manufacturer now?  

 

They started out by proving the business case for the Pendolino because none of the established manufacturers were touching it. 

 

Now you're saying we, at consumer level, have to prove the business case for a model? I thought that was Revolutions MO. Find out what modellers want and produce it. 

 

Nope. I get the impression Revolution have done their research and checked their historical data regarding liveries and have found that a class 313/314 is potentially appropriate but most likely the C&C livery variant is not so. The whole lot could still come crashing down if there are insufficient pre-orders (as with the class 21/29) and spreading the choice (of liveries) will potentially water down interest in other liveries preventing them making the cut.

 

 

 

 

[TomE]

1 hour ago, ash39 said:

I might be in the minority, in which case this entire post is moot, but I tend to buy models based on what else is available to go with it. I'd love to model a busy commuter station on the south ECML and a couple of First Capital Connect 313's would be perfect for this, but without a contemporary Class 91/Mk4 it is not much use. I'm not hugely familiar with the Southern Region, but I believe a similar case exists there as the Electrostar family are hugely widespread but as yet not available in any scale.

You hit upon a wider problem that affects all scales, not just N Gauge. But in N specifically it is virtually impossible to accurately model any of the mainline passenger operations as they are today, and even as they were over the last 20-30 years or more, using the available RTR stock.  
 

Thanks largely to Revolution the  WCML has seen a significant improvement and when the Kato Class 800 arrives the GWML will be well served outside of the London area, but the SWML, MML, ECML and GEML are all missing key items of rolling stock which makes it nigh on impossible to replicate them in any significant way.  

 

Major ommisons are the Electrostar family in it’s entirety, most versions of the Desiro family and even some of the premier mainline stock (and in some cases I use the word premier loosely!) is not available. Without a Meridian you can forget trying to replicate the MML. Without a class 90 or the more recent FLIRTS and Aventra the GEML is out and whilst the Kato 800 will help with the ECML the 91 & Mk.4s is still a significant gap. 
 

Its a frustrating situation and part of the reason I’ve ended up modelling a preserved railway rather than anything modern image in the hope the situation eventually improves. 

 

Tom.