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Revolution Class 313 and 314 in N


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There's a part of me that wants one - it's 1976 and over in reimagined Chester Northgate they've borrowed a new 313 to test it on the shuttle service to Liverpool before commissioning the 507.

 

Which is a variation on the real story which saw 313s in Liverpool in 1978 in the lead up to the introduction of the 507s.

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3 hours ago, ash39 said:

However I think what gets overlooked sometimes is the more mundane, widespread liveries that are more useful might actually lead to more sales across the range as it allows you to build up a selection of models to model a certain area and period of time.

 

Those of us who want to model accurately - to choose a location and era and stick to only appropriate rolling stock and liveries - by most estimates only make up 10% to maybe 20% of the hobby.  This hobby exists on the purchases of people who either just collect trains, or run whatever they want regardless of how likely it happened in the real world.

 

Aiming only at the prototypical modeller is a quick way to go out of business given the costs of bringing a new RTR model to market.

 

Quote

The fact that an N gauge emu is attracting so many comments on here (normally days/weeks pass with no posts on threads,) suggests they may be something in what we’re all saying!

 

Actually, it isn't.  What we are seeing is 2 or 3 people making the same argument repeatedly - and ignoring the reasons given for what it won't happen.

 

That it is only 2 or 3 people making the same request repeatedly would seem to suggest that Revolution are correct in their understanding of the market.

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6 minutes ago, TomE said:

Its a frustrating situation and part of the reason I’ve ended up modelling a preserved railway rather than anything modern image in the hope the situation eventually improves. 

 

Tom. 

Your weathering and detailing skills would be wasted on modern clean stock - your preservation stock is sublime.

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Apparently 13 was one of two 313's that were trailed in Merseyside prior to the 507 and 508's being ordered.  I don't suppose anyone knows the number of the other one do they?

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1 hour ago, ash39 said:

So are Revolution basically a large manufacturer now?  

 

They started out by proving the business case for the Pendolino because none of the established manufacturers were touching it. 

 

Now you're saying we, at consumer level, have to prove the business case for a model? I thought that was Revolutions MO. Find out what modellers want and produce it. 

 

No we're not a large manufacturer (if we were then we wouldn't be having these discussions) but that doesn't mean that everything is practical to produce!  There is a lot of difference between some customers and enough customers.

 

We've tried to explain our reasoning, plus we're already offering more livery choices than most manufacturers would (that isn't a criticism of other manufacturers, just everyone's level of practical MoQs differs).

 

I've even offered people a potential route to get what they want (I very nearly said make the case without negatively impacting those customers that might want Strathclyde Orange or Scotrail because that is part of the decision!). If you model the central belt between 2007 and 2010 I completely accept that you might be disappointed that there is literally nothing suitable for your period, but for everyone else modelling the same area from 1983 to 2006 and 2011 to 2019 there is something and not just a one-off or special livery.

 

Cheers Mike

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NSE for me please to go with my 321.

 

But I have to say that FCC livery looks very smart with the blue-fade. Shame the Class 321 was produced with a plainer version of the FCC livery without the fade effect on the blue. Still, at least my wallet can breathe a sight of relief. ;)

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3 hours ago, woodenhead said:

@nickb4141 but this is all based on your belief that the C&C livery would sell, RevolutioN are in the position of understanding the market better - yours is based on your own bias for such a model versus theirs which is based on expressions of interest and the impact spreading yourself too thin has on sales.

 

N gauge special commissions are not exactly common - Kernow did some but they stick to things that would be seen in the Southwest so you can count them out, Rails tends to focus on things they can sell or NRM specials and generally it is OO or O, Hattons sells it's own models and Gaugemaster still haven't delivered the Dapol 73 specials so a 314 would be well down any plans if at all.

 

So that leaves C&M and one other you haven't mentioned and very much in the sphere of commissions - KMS Railtech.  I am sure RevolutioN would happily supply either shop with a special commission, once they know that it wouldn't leave them with a stack of unsold 314s of their own. 

 

Perhaps then on  a second run?

It’s not based on personal bias, purely that C&C was the most common livery and the most prolific one worn by two thirds of the class right up until withdrawal. Mike has quite rightly said the Saltire livery of the class 320 has been popular (and I agree with that because I have two of them on order!) The point is, current liveries are always popular and with this rationale, the C&C 314’s were the equivalent of the 320 Saltire livery, as just five 314’s received Saltire livery. In addition the inclusion of C&C would have been able to run with either of the current 2 options, so could have led to increased orders. Normally the Revolution guys are ‘bang on’ with their livery choices, but I think a few of us have been flagging this as a missed opportunity. Obviously I want the project to succeed and I’m just sharing this to maximise its chances of success. I know the 320/321 ordering system was a bit of a nightmare for Mike & Ben, but on the positive side it did show what liveries were viable for those classes. 
 

N gauge commissions naturally aren’t as popular as 00 ones, but Kernow currently have a class 92 exclusive, certainly no native of the South West, same with Gaugemaster’s GWR 153’s. My layout is Glasgow based, but I live in Kent and place internet orders with multiple retailers. If the model has commercial potential, it doesn’t matter who picks it up. As the C&C complements the other two liveries, I don’t believe it would impact their sales. KMS is a good suggestion of yours, or as you say, on a second run would be good :)

 

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2 hours ago, red death said:

 

No we're not a large manufacturer (if we were then we wouldn't be having these discussions) but that doesn't mean that everything is practical to produce!  There is a lot of difference between some customers and enough customers.

 

We've tried to explain our reasoning, plus we're already offering more livery choices than most manufacturers would (that isn't a criticism of other manufacturers, just everyone's level of practical MoQs differs).

 

I've even offered people a potential route to get what they want (I very nearly said make the case without negatively impacting those customers that might want Strathclyde Orange or Scotrail because that is part of the decision!). If you model the central belt between 2007 and 2010 I completely accept that you might be disappointed that there is literally nothing suitable for your period, but for everyone else modelling the same area from 1983 to 2006 and 2011 to 2019 there is something and not just a one-off or special livery.

 

Cheers Mike

Hi Mike, 

 

I promise I’m not trying to be difficult! I just want the project to be a success as you do. Re; proving demand for the C&C, could it not be added to the orders to find the true potential of each livery? If not enough orders were received for one of the liveries, could this not be communicated by email, thereby giving customers the chance to swap to remaining liveries and get them over the MOQ threshold? 
 

Best Regards, Nick. 

 

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3 hours ago, mdvle said:

 

Those of us who want to model accurately - to choose a location and era and stick to only appropriate rolling stock and liveries - by most estimates only make up 10% to maybe 20% of the hobby.  This hobby exists on the purchases of people who either just collect trains, or run whatever they want regardless of how likely it happened in the real world.

 

Aiming only at the prototypical modeller is a quick way to go out of business given the costs of bringing a new RTR model to market.

 

 

Actually, it isn't.  What we are seeing is 2 or 3 people making the same argument repeatedly - and ignoring the reasons given for what it won't happen.

 

That it is only 2 or 3 people making the same request repeatedly would seem to suggest that Revolution are correct in their understanding of the market.

I think there’s more than 2 or 3 of us! I don’t doubt Revolution’s competence, which is why my credit card has taken such a bashing from them over the last few years! All we have flagged to them are the facts of how the C&C livery is more relevant to the 314 than it was to the 320, that’s all! The fact that there are a few people saying the same thing on a n N gauge doesn’t mean that we are the only potential customers who might feel the same - not all potential customers are on RMWeb! 

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4 hours ago, njee20 said:

  

 

What's not to understand - Scotrail 156s visit Carlisle, but 314s don't? Most commissioning retailers will commission things relevant to them - Kernow do lots of prototypes relevant to the South West (not solely, admittedly), C&M focus on stuff relevant to their locale. That's very different to what people model, where I agree that I suspect a minority of people actually model what's local to them.

 

I think your comment that Revolution "won't entertain" doing C&C is misplaced; Mike has said that if you can prove the demand is there then they will do it. They have more experience and data available that anyone here, so someone saying, in an increasingly exasperated tone "why aren't you doing it?" isn't going to help. Proving the market is there (or convincing a retailer) will.

The point I was making was C&M have a history of commissioning Scottish themed products. The fact that the 314’s don’t pass their door and 156’s do is of no relevance  - if they or any of the other UK model shops think this is a commercial proposition, they will sell to whoever wants them.

 

I don’t doubt Mike’s expertise in bringing excellent products to market, all that I and others have done is highlight the facts of how the C&C livery is much more relevant to the class 314, than it was to the 320, after he remarked how well the 320’s in Saltire livery had sold, which as the current livery is understandable. 

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42 minutes ago, nickb4141 said:

could it not be added to the orders to find the true potential of each livery? If not enough orders were received for one of the liveries, could this not be communicated by email, thereby giving customers the chance to swap to remaining liveries and get them over the MOQ threshold? 
 

Best Regards, Nick. 

 

 

I'm afraid not, that is exactly the 320/321 situation that we are trying to avoid. 

 

Cheers Mike

 

 

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2 hours ago, nickb4141 said:

I promise I’m not trying to be difficult! I just want the project to be a success as you do. Re; proving demand for the C&C, could it not be added to the orders to find the true potential of each livery? If not enough orders were received for one of the liveries, could this not be communicated by email, thereby giving customers the chance to swap to remaining liveries and get them over the MOQ threshold?

 

All this does is end up making customer unhappy, because the livery they "ordered" is now cancelled, and creates extra hassle and work for the people behind Revolution (who, to be honest, likely don't have enough hours in the day already without creating additional work) who then have to notify people about cancelled liveries, extend order deadlines in the hope that they switch their orders instead of just cancelling, etc.

 

At the end of the day, while they are being polite enough to not say it, the reality is that there are apparently only enough potential sales for 2 out of the 3 possible liveries, and they have chosen the 2 liveries not only most likely to sell enough to make the project viable but to cover the markets that they know exist.  Repeatedly demanding that the C&C livery be offered isn't going to change that.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

All this does is end up making customer unhappy, because the livery they "ordered" is now cancelled, and creates extra hassle and work for the people behind Revolution (who, to be honest, likely don't have enough hours in the day already without creating additional work) who then have to notify people about cancelled liveries, extend order deadlines in the hope that they switch their orders instead of just cancelling, etc.

 

At the end of the day, while they are being polite enough to not say it, the reality is that there are apparently only enough potential sales for 2 out of the 3 possible liveries, and they have chosen the 2 liveries not only most likely to sell enough to make the project viable but to cover the markets that they know exist.  Repeatedly demanding that the C&C livery be offered isn't going to change that.

 

 

I don’t think I’ve ever ‘demanded’ that Revolution offer the C&C livery. All I and others have pointed out is they may have ‘missed a trick’ in excluding it, backed up with facts to justify why we believe this to be the case. This has been done in a constructive way and at no point have I criticised their products, which I think are fantastic. I think it’s fair to say we’ve had a few hostile posts from other members which has felt something along the lines of ’Revolution know what they will sell and you have no experience as a manufacturer, so pipe down’ I’ve actually been a massive fan of EMU’s since I was a kid, so I’ve learnt a lot about them over the last 40 years or so and everything I’ve posted has been done with good intentions and to try and help the project succeed. It’s not as if we’ve been saying ‘’the cads look awful so I for one won’t be parting with my money with you!’ type of negative posts you often see on here! :) 

 

The reason for suggesting the 3 liveries all be offered was to get a true read on whether there was a market for them, as Mike had suggested we need to prove the demand. Other than doing that, I don’t see how we would be able to do this as polls where people say how many they would buy are probably not a true reflection of people actually parting with their cash! 
 

So, I’ve tried and I now accept defeat! I wish the project well and I’m sure I’ll probably buy one unit (and I can use the money I would have spent on a couple of C&C’s on other Revolution products :) ) 

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4 minutes ago, nickb4141 said:

 

The reason for suggesting the 3 liveries all be offered was to get a true read on whether there was a market for them, 

 

I think one of the issues that others have been trying to explain that perhaps you are not grasping, is that offering more choice with additional liveries may well damage demand for the other potentially more attractive liveries meaning they don't reach MOQs and may well affect the whole market for the project. Basically you are asking them to test out your personal theory on a live project with a potential to cause delay and confusion. I get the impression that happened with the class 321 which nearly crashed the project and caused delays in reassessing total demand. I could be wrong though . . . .

 

 

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I wasn't demanding anything either, just pointing out what I believe to be an oversight.

 

I'm pretty surprised at some of the responses suggsting toys have been throw out of the pram over this - all the cases for a C&C 314 have been made politely and backed up with facts, including pointing out that Revolution had got the dates wrong for the Orange livery.

 

I agree we're going round in (Cathcart) circles so I'll leave it at that! Good luck with the project.

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3 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

I think one of the issues that others have been trying to explain that perhaps you are not grasping, is that offering more choice with additional liveries may well damage demand for the other potentially more attractive liveries meaning they don't reach MOQs and may well affect the whole market for the project. Basically you are asking them to test out your personal theory on a live project with a potential to cause delay and confusion. I get the impression that happened with the class 321 which nearly crashed the project and caused delays in reassessing total demand. I could be wrong though . . . .

 

 

Actually I did grasp that thanks! I appreciate the issues with the 321’s as I had pre-orders like others did. When Mike suggested we prove the demand, I can’t see any other way around this, unless you or anyone else has any suggestions how you would do this? It’s not my ‘personal theory’ I was trying to be proactive and offer a solution, rather than being hostile as some people seem to be on here.....

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It must be so difficult knowing which liveries to offer when you have to make sure everything sells 100% and I can totally understand Revolution's caution. No-one wants them to be left with unsold stock of what is a brave choice of product. 

 

Retailers still have Dapol's Class 142 in the Northern Spirit and T&W Yellow liveries but try getting a Regional Railways version.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, ash39 said:

I wasn't demanding anything either, just pointing out what I believe to be an oversight.

 

I'm pretty surprised at some of the responses suggsting toys have been throw out of the pram over this - all the cases for a C&C 314 have been made politely and backed up with facts, including pointing out that Revolution had got the dates wrong for the Orange livery.

 

I agree we're going round in (Cathcart) circles so I'll leave it at that! Good luck with the project.

I couldn’t agree more! I can’t quite believe how hostile some people have been! :( 

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Hello all,

 

Thanks for all the informed and courteous discussion.  It’s certainly been useful, and we do understand how passionately we can feel about particular liveries - we feel the same!

 

Also I am grateful to those who have, rightly, pointed out that our initial research was flawed re the end dates for the orange livery.
 

But perhaps now everyone has offered their views and been heard now is the time to draw a line under the discussion.  Our focus now is on approving the CAD drawings (and thanks very much for the kind words) and doing our best to generate the orders that will speed the 313 and the 314 into tooling.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

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11 hours ago, nickb4141 said:

I couldn’t agree more! I can’t quite believe how hostile some people have been! :( 


I was a bit confused by this comment so I read through the whole thread again. I couldn’t see anything that could be construed as hostile. So either those posts have been deleted or some people are confusing disagreement with hostility. Have a good day, everyone.

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What annoys me is I remember the 314s new in 1979. I remember going down to Central low level just to see the new class . Nov 1979 . The advertising slogan on the new Argyle Line  was "Inner Outer Under Over.....Trans-Clyde"  40 years on and most are being scrapped is just a reminder of how old I am !  I remember my first ride on one and thinking how quiet they were and how smooth the ride was in comparison to a 303/311.   Then in later life (Crimson and Cream days dare I mention it) these units could be found on the Inverclyde lines and they'd take me up to Glasgow for the day . So they have a special place for me which is why I'd consider an "n" Layout just to run them . A terminus  like Gourock maybe or perhaps Bishopton with the ROF sidings still in place .

 

Anyway best wishes to Revolution for bringing this model to market .

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21 hours ago, ash39 said:

I'd love to model a busy commuter station on the south ECML and a couple of First Capital Connect 313's would be perfect for this, but without a contemporary Class 91/Mk4 it is not much use.

ME TOO :yes: !!! But, you “gotta speculate to accumulate” as they say - I have fond teenage and early 20s memories of travelling the southern portion of the ECML on both WAGN/FCC and GNER - I too would love to model that accurately - so buy the FCC 313 and/or the NSE (slap some WAGN triangles on the bodyside to be authentic) and hope that Cavalex do their 91+mk4 as they previously proposed (or make do with the Farish version).

 

I guess my point is that not all these things will materialise at once, so you sort of have to hope that they will arrive eventually.... this is somewhat a consequence of the batch production manufacturing style employed by all of the manufacturers these days.
 

Regardless, the 313 is a big ‘gap filler’ in the case of recent ECML passenger traffic.... so i guess we all just have to make our peace with the roll of the dice and hope we all get what we want.... I’ll buy your FCC 313s off you if it doesn’t work out :D !.... but here’s hoping none of us are left disappointed :good:

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