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Revolution Class 313 and 314 in N


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17 minutes ago, irishmail said:

I would be interested in a 00 version if one was produced...

 

 

Sorry - we've no plans to offer this model in 00.  Thanks for the practical information though - very interesting!

 

best wishes

 

Ben

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35 minutes ago, Ben A said:

 

Hi all,

 

Re the 314s:  Photographic research suggests the Stathclyde livery lasted until Spring 2013, and the Saltire livery came in 2011. So there is no point at which all 314s were Carmine and Cream.

 

I agree the Carmine and Cream livery is attractive, but the reality is the liveries on offer cover the lifespan of the Class in Scotland from 1983 until withdrawal.

 

As Mike said, our experience is that if you offer too much choice in a niche market such as N EMUs, then it tends to 'split the vote' and nothing reaches MoQ.  We'd love to do everything everyone wants, but we have to be realistic, and we've seen where over-promising can lead.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

I do understand what you’re saying about offering too many liveries and splitting the MOQ’s required. However, if you model the current scene (or even the last 20 years, which a lot of modellers do,) you’re excluding the most common livery and one which has been around since 1997. If it was a one off or niche livery, I could understand it’s exclusion, but if the Southern, Heritage B&G, Silverlink and Urban Lights liveries are all viable, it does seem a curious decision to exclude C&C for the 314’s, which is one of the longest lasting liveries? Sorry, I don’t want to come across as difficult, (I love your products and have many more on order,) but I do wonder if you’re shooting yourselves in the foot by this livery exclusion. I hope you will reconsider, so I can buy a couple! :)

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Hi Gang,

 

I, too am slightly disappointed by the exclusion of Carmine and Cream for the 314. however, I do understand that Revolution will have done the Maths as to what is viable or not.

Interestingly, there are a couple of variants of C & C as door visibility legislation arrived during its life. Then there are the various logos as the franchise was National Express ‘swoosh’ logos before the ScotRail Saltire branding was created. 
 

I will definitely be in for at least one each of the 314 liveries on offer.

 

Later,

Stu in LCRA.

 

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4D213D29-561D-4DFD-AFF3-BDEF556A825D.jpeg.7c23611db222416e3ac9af99a48060de.jpeg

 

I’m thinking this will quite nicely complement the forthcoming Farish Class 450, since they run side by side between Havant & Portsmouth. Also helps the case for the ever elusive Class 377 I reckon :spiteful:
 

Tom. 

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It must be a tricky one for the guys knowing which livery to produce . I would agree though that if anything I think Carmine and Cream is the longest lasting livery and that all members of the 314 class had it 

 

They were introduced in 1979 in Trans-Clyde Blue and Grey

I think Strathclyde Orange and Black started in late summer 83, not 1986 as others suggested . The 314s being the flagship unit at the time were painted relatively quickly 

Carmine and Cream I think was from 1999. All the class carried it , most until they were withdrawn last year .

Although Spotrail started in 2011 , the 314s were amongst the last units to get it  and I think only 5 or 6 got the colour scheme , so it in fact is the shortest lived scheme

 

So if its longevity thats the selling point Carmine/ Cream and Orange / Black carry it .  I suspect most people go for Spotrail because its the more attractive scheme  even though quite short lived on the class 

 

I'm really sorry you cant produce this in OO. Can only assume someone else will take up the challenge , we've been waiting 45 years (in the case of 313), really surprised no one has done this family of emus . Hopefully , if not you , Accurascale will see the potential in OO

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13 minutes ago, Legend said:

It must be a tricky one for the guys knowing which livery to produce . I would agree though that if anything I think Carmine and Cream is the longest lasting livery and that all members of the 314 class had it 

 

They were introduced in 1979 in Trans-Clyde Blue and Grey

I think Strathclyde Orange and Black started in late summer 83, not 1986 as others suggested . The 314s being the flagship unit at the time were painted relatively quickly 

Carmine and Cream I think was from 1999. All the class carried it .

Although Spotrail started in 2011 , the 314s were amongst the last units to get it  and I think only 5 or 6 got the colour scheme , so it in fact is the shortest lived scheme

 

So if its longevity thats the selling point Carmine/ Cream and Orange / Black carry it .  I suspect most people go for Spotrail because its the more attractive scheme  even though quite short lived on the class 

 

Only 5 314s got Spotrail from what I can gather, but also as far as I can tell the Orange was eradicated on the 314s in November 2006, 314 202.  And I can't find any post 2006 314 photos.  I'm maybe not looking in the right places, but I don't remember any Orange ones in the early 2010s at all.  If that's the case, then between 2006 and 2011 all 314s were in Carmine/Cream, in one form or other.

 

I'm genuinly not trying to be difficult, it's a huge gap in my albeit limited knowledge if I'm wrong.  And it calls into question my memories of using the Cathcart Circle, which is more worrying.

 

The appeal for Spotrail is of course that it is the most recent livery.

 

Best

 

Scott.

Edited by scottystitch
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1 hour ago, scottystitch said:

 

Only 5 314s got Spotrail from what I can gather, but also as far as I can tell the Orange was eradicated on the 314s in November 2006, 314 202.  And I can't find any post 2006 314 photos.  I'm maybe not looking in the right places, but I don't remember any Orange ones in the early 2010s at all.  If that's the case, then between 2006 and 2011 all 314s were in Carmine/Cream, in one form or other.

 

I'm genuinly not trying to be difficult, it's a huge gap in my albeit limited knowledge if I'm wrong.  And it calls into question my memories of using the Cathcart Circle, which is more worrying.

 

The appeal for Spotrail is of course that it is the most recent livery.

 

Best

 

Scott.

I understand why the Revolution guys want to limit the choices of liveries to make projects more viable, but I think excluding Carmine & Cream which for the vast majority of units was the current livery, they have unintentionally made it harder for the 314’s to reach the MOQ’s required to make them possible. I know they have gone by what liveries sold for the 320, but the circumstances are very different in that only 5 314 units received the Saltire livery and where the most recent liveries normally sell very well, they have effectively excluded a large proportion of potential buyers. I am really gutted to be honest as they look fantastic :(

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Are you sure it's the right call to exclude C&C livery ?  It spans a huge time frame and has options for mixing with both Strathclyde Orange and ScotRail livery.

 

If both were being produced, I'd probably order one of each to go with my 320 as it would be give enough variety to justify a micro layout of a Cathcart circle station. 

 

If C&C is missing, I may end up with just one ScotRail (or perhaps none at all). I can't be the only one thinking this? It would be nice to model their final days when they were battered and bruised, but more than half were still in C&C livery until the end! 

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Certain! We've tried to explain our reasoning but there's only so much we can say to people before it feels like we're going round in circles!

 

We really can't produce everything or every variation. No matter what we do there will always be a variation or livery that we just can't offer. Furthermore as explained bitter experience is that if we offer too much then all versions struggle.

 

Blue/grey 1979 to early 80s

Strathclyde Orange covers as a minimum 1983 to 2006 ie 23 years

Carmine and Cream covers 1997 - 2019 ie 24 years

Scotrail Saltire covers 2011 - 2019

 

So it is a straight choice between Carmine and Cream and Scotrail and I'm afraid that is no choice really. OK, not all were painted in Scotrail but 5 were ie a third of the class!

 

It doesn't matter which we try and cut this - our experience is so overwhelmingly in favour of Scotrail Saltire. Of course there is a difference that C&C lasted longer on the 314s than on the 320s but if you were being asked to make a business case how can we go against the data we have?  I'm not talking about a marginal difference. Nor is the decision solely based on the 320 sales.

 

Did I say we really can't produce every livery or variation!

 

Seriously prove me wrong - find 250-300 sales of Carmine and Cream and we'll produce it!

 

Cheers Mike

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11 minutes ago, red death said:

Certain! We've tried to explain our reasoning but there's only so much we can say to people before it feels like we're going round in circles!

 

We really can't produce everything or every variation. No matter what we do there will always be a variation or livery that we just can't offer. Furthermore as explained bitter experience is that if we offer too much then all versions struggle.

 

Blue/grey 1979 to early 80s

Strathclyde Orange covers as a minimum 1983 to 2006 ie 23 years

Carmine and Cream covers 1997 - 2019 ie 24 years

Scotrail Saltire covers 2011 - 2019

 

So it is a straight choice between Carmine and Cream and Scotrail and I'm afraid that is no choice really. OK, not all were painted in Scotrail but 5 were ie a third of the class!

 

It doesn't matter which we try and cut this - our experience is so overwhelmingly in favour of Scotrail Saltire. Of course there is a difference that C&C lasted longer on the 314s than on the 320s but if you were being asked to make a business case how can we go against the data we have?  I'm not talking about a marginal difference. Nor is the decision solely based on the 320 sales.

 

Did I say we really can't produce every livery or variation!

 

Seriously prove me wrong - find 250-300 sales of Carmine and Cream and we'll produce it!

 

Cheers Mike


I appreciate you feel exasperated, and heaven knows I couldn’t do what you’re doing, but this isn’t a simple case of ‘boo-hoo you’re not doing the one I want’.

 

An assertion was made by you (Revolution that is), in a previous post, that the orange and Spotrail covered the life of the 314s in Scotland unbroken from 1983 to 2019, based on photographic research.  Myself and others challenged that assertion, and on another forum I asked to see any photographs post 2006.  If there is photo evidence of orange in service on 314s after 2006 I’d genuinely be very interested in seeing it. And I’ll apologise with bells and whistles.  I don’t think anyone is here to try and score points.
 

But now you’re saying as a minimum until 2006. Which is different. And you said, earlier, photo research suggested otherwise.

 

You’re justifying your choice (which you don’t have to do, obviously, and we appreciate the engagement) but we don’t think your justification (post 2006 orange) is right.

 

At the end of the day you know what you’re doing better than I ever could and you’ve got the experience so you have to do what you think is right.  It just seems odd to ditch the livery that 100% of the fleet carried and 2/3 saw out its days in.
 

I’m your biggest fan for bringing the 35T and the Cemflo to market and I hope this model does very well, but it’s not for me anymore, I’m afraid, and I’ll say no more about it.  
 

Except, I never assumed that c&c was up against Spotrail (that would have been first on the list) I assumed c&c was dropped in favour of orange. 
 

Best

 

Scott.
 

 

 

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2 hours ago, ash39 said:

Are you sure it's the right call to exclude C&C livery ?  It spans a huge time frame and has options for mixing with both Strathclyde Orange and ScotRail livery.

 

If both were being produced, I'd probably order one of each to go with my 320 as it would be give enough variety to justify a micro layout of a Cathcart circle station. 

 

If C&C is missing, I may end up with just one ScotRail (or perhaps none at all). I can't be the only one thinking this? It would be nice to model their final days when they were battered and bruised, but more than half were still in C&C livery until the end! 

I totally agree with everything you say. I cannot see why a 314 in C&C would sell less than the 313 in Southern, Heritage B&G, Silverlink or Urban Lights livery and certainly would expect it to outsell Network Rail, which like the Heritage B&G are one-off liveries. N gauge forums rarely have this many people being vocal, so the fact that so many have already mentioned this in less than 24 hours, surely suggests there is something in what we are saying? I’m a big supporter of Revolution models; I have 3 Pendolinos, 4 Caledonian Sleeper packs, a TPE Mk 5 set and have recently purchased 3 class 92’s, which I think are fab. I just want the project to succeed and think they are making a big blunder excluding C&C, the livery worn by all units for the longest period of time and suitable for anyone modelling 1997 onwards? At least putting it up for orders would seem the most pragmatic approach, rather than flatly refusing to do it when there is obvious demand for it? 

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1 hour ago, red death said:

Certain! We've tried to explain our reasoning but there's only so much we can say to people before it feels like we're going round in circles!

 

We really can't produce everything or every variation. No matter what we do there will always be a variation or livery that we just can't offer. Furthermore as explained bitter experience is that if we offer too much then all versions struggle.

 

Blue/grey 1979 to early 80s

Strathclyde Orange covers as a minimum 1983 to 2006 ie 23 years

Carmine and Cream covers 1997 - 2019 ie 24 years

Scotrail Saltire covers 2011 - 2019

 

So it is a straight choice between Carmine and Cream and Scotrail and I'm afraid that is no choice really. OK, not all were painted in Scotrail but 5 were ie a third of the class!

 

It doesn't matter which we try and cut this - our experience is so overwhelmingly in favour of Scotrail Saltire. Of course there is a difference that C&C lasted longer on the 314s than on the 320s but if you were being asked to make a business case how can we go against the data we have?  I'm not talking about a marginal difference. Nor is the decision solely based on the 320 sales.

 

Did I say we really can't produce every livery or variation!

 

Seriously prove me wrong - find 250-300 sales of Carmine and Cream and we'll produce it!

 

Cheers Mike

Hi Mike, the only way we can prove you wrong is if you offer the Carmine & Cream livery when you open the order book. If it doesn’t achieve 250-300, then we will at least know. To be honest, I’d order 2 of C&C and probably 1 of Saltire as it is a nice Current liveries always tend to sell well and in the case of the 314’s C&C, in effect is the latest livery for two thirds of the class. If you offer C&C, I’ll order 3, but if not I’m only going to order 1, so in terms of getting the project over the line, excluding it seems to be counter-productive. Not every modeller will only order 1 of a product, so splitting sales won’t always be an issue, particularly when it’s a core livery. The class 320 is a totally different scenario because they have all been in Saltire livery for the last 10 years or so, so it’s not comparing ‘apples with apples’ Can you not at least put the decision to us customers by putting it on the orders? 

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2 hours ago, red death said:

Seriously prove me wrong - find 250-300 sales of Carmine and Cream and we'll produce it!

 

Appreciate your reply Mike, and I get where you're coming from. I remember Ben saying you had to make the tough call to drop 321 liveries that he'd have actually wanted for his own personal layout, so I understand the commercial implications and that half a dozen people expressing dissapointment on a forum don't necessarily convert into the 250 orders you need to make it worth producing.

 

My post was partially based on a personal desire for a C&C 314, but I also think your previous & upcoming models (Pendolino, Class 92, Class 320) fit right into the window where C&C would be most prevelant. 

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1 hour ago, scottystitch said:

An assertion was made by you (Revolution that is), in a previous post, that the orange and Spotrail covered the life of the 314s in Scotland unbroken from 1983 to 2019, based on photographic research.  Myself and others challenged that assertion, and on another forum I asked to see any photographs post 2006.  If there is photo evidence of orange in service on 314s after 2006 I’d genuinely be very interested in seeing it. And I’ll apologise with bells and whistles.  I don’t think anyone is here to try and score points.
 

But now you’re saying as a minimum until 2006. Which is different. And you said, earlier, photo research suggested otherwise.

 

 

Hi Scott,

 

That was my fault. I had a quick look earlier and found some units in orange livery that were dated 2012 and 2013.  It is quite possible that the photographer had recorded the date wrong.

 

I won’t link to them all but here is one that claims to have been taken in 2012: 

 

Class 314 - Port Glasgow

 

More than happy to accept this, and the others, were wrongly captioned.  It’s a pity because the Carmine and Cream livery is very nice.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Ben A said:

 

 

Hi Scott,

 

That was my fault. I had a quick look earlier and found some units in orange livery that were dated 2012 and 2013.  It is quite possible that the photographer had recorded the date wrong.

 

I won’t link to them all but here is one that claims to have been taken in 2012: 

 

Class 314 - Port Glasgow

 

More than happy to accept this, and the others, were wrongly captioned.  It’s a pity because the Carmine and Cream livery is very nice.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

 

 

Hi Ben, The thing I can’t understand is, although there are multiple liveries being offered on the 313, there are only 2 for the 314, so if it’s purely a worry that offering a third one will harm the sales of the other two, then surely this is equally applicable to the 313? Would it not be possible to offer the Carmine & Cream and see if there is enough demand for it?  If there isn’t, I’m more than happy to accept I was wrong and Revolution were right all along. It just seems a bit defeatist to deny modellers the chance to ‘put their money where their mouth is’ and potentially help the product receive enough orders and help Revolution’s commercial success, which obviously, is in all our interests :)

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12 minutes ago, Ben A said:

 

 

Hi Scott,

 

That was my fault. I had a quick look earlier and found some units in orange livery that were dated 2012 and 2013.  It is quite possible that the photographer had recorded the date wrong.

 

I won’t link to them all but here is one that claims to have been taken in 2012: 

 

Class 314 - Port Glasgow

 

More than happy to accept this, and the others, were wrongly captioned.  It’s a pity because the Carmine and Cream livery is very nice.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

 

 

Hello Ben,

 

Thanks for the response. I think this one at least is wrongly dated. I’m almost certain it’s 314212.  Flickr has a few of 212 in C&C dated 2005, 09, 10 and 12.

 

I wonder if that ‘taken’ date on that image is actually the upload date?...

 

Best

 

Scott. 

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5 minutes ago, scottystitch said:

I wonder if that ‘taken’ date on that image is actually the upload date?...

 

 

Yes, quite possibly.  I was surprised, I admit, but after finding a few like that I just assumed they’d lasted longer than I previously thought.

 

We’re happy to accept that Strathclyde didn’t last beyond 2006.  So yes, there is a gap! But the reality is that we know offering too many choices will do more harm than good.   Really appreciate your comments, and I do understand your frustration: as you pointed out, my own favourite 321 didn’t make the cut either!

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

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10 minutes ago, Ben A said:

 

 

Yes, quite possibly.  I was surprised, I admit, but after finding a few like that I just assumed they’d lasted longer than I previously thought.

 

We’re happy to accept that Strathclyde didn’t last beyond 2006.  So yes, there is a gap! But the reality is that we know offering too many choices will do more harm than good.   Really appreciate your comments, and I do understand your frustration: as you pointed out, my own favourite 321 didn’t make the cut either!

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Hi Ben,

 

I understand offering too many livery choices might harm sales, but offering three rather than two options for a 40 year lifespan unit doesn’t seem excessive and I strongly suspect a lot of modellers will order two sequential liveries (eg Strathclyde Orange & C&C or C&C and Saltire liveries, as these can prototypically be run side by side across a wide timescale) In that scenario, running C&C might actually help sales of the other two liveries.  If splitting sales is the sole reason for excluding Carmine & Cream for the 314, then why wouldn’t this be the same issue for the 313, where there are, arguably, many more ‘fringe liveries’ being offered? It just doesn’t make sense?

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35 minutes ago, nickb4141 said:

Hi Ben, The thing I can’t understand is, although there are multiple liveries being offered on the 313, there are only 2 for the 314, so if it’s purely a worry that offering a third one will harm the sales of the other two, then surely this is equally applicable to the 313?

 

It all comes down to the market interested in buying the model.

 

While it's not perfect, populations in part tell the story - Glasgow at around 600,000 vs London at 9,000,000 (adding in the surrounding areas doesn't change the underlying disparity in population).

 

Simply put, there will be far more potential buyers for the London based units than the Glasgow units.  This in turn reflects the number of paint schemes that are viable.

 

As for what liveries to offer, Revolution (as they have said) have experience that says Orange sells better than C&C - and while arguments can be made that different units have different main eras that ignores the possibility that most of the potential market is modelling the Orange era.

 

35 minutes ago, nickb4141 said:

Would it not be possible to offer the Carmine & Cream and see if there is enough demand for it?  If there isn’t, I’m more than happy to accept I was wrong and Revolution were right all along. It just seems a bit defeatist to deny modellers the chance to ‘put their money where their mouth is’ and potentially help the product receive enough orders and help Revolution’s commercial success, which obviously, is in all our interests :)

 

They already explained this multiple times - what happens is that instead of just C&C failing, the orders are split between C&C and Orange and both end up failing - which is even worse for Glasgow modellers.

 

At the end of the day the factories insist on a minimum order per livery, and making that minimum means liveries can't be done that may well be wanted.

 

 

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I'm far from convinced that any Strathclyde Orange 314s did last beyond 2006 so yes I completely accept that there is a 5 year gap (just like there is a 4 year gap without blue grey).

 

As to why there are more livery choices on the 313 - partly because without the 313 there would be no 314, there were over 4 times as many 313s, but also that there are natural geographic splits in the 313s that aren't the case for the 314s. Plus there were only ever 4 liveries on the 314s and as we've established you can pick 2 and cover the vast majority of the life. You can't do that with the 313s.

 

Blue grey and NSE are obvious.

Privatisation starts to become more tricky with geographical splits in liveries so we've picked one for each use:

ECML/Great Northern/FCC

West and North London: Silverlink Metro/London Overground

South coast: Southern

 

The heritage blue/grey set we can do as part of the blue/grey offering so is an easy one to do in small numbers.

NR Rail yellow is unique and clearly sells well.

 

Cheers Mike

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14 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

It all comes down to the market interested in buying the model.

 

While it's not perfect, populations in part tell the story - Glasgow at around 600,000 vs London at 9,000,000 (adding in the surrounding areas doesn't change the underlying disparity in population).

 

Simply put, there will be far more potential buyers for the London based units than the Glasgow units.  This in turn reflects the number of paint schemes that are viable.

 

As for what liveries to offer, Revolution (as they have said) have experience that says Orange sells better than C&C - and while arguments can be made that different units have different main eras that ignores the possibility that most of the potential market is modelling the Orange era.

 

 

They already explained this multiple times - what happens is that instead of just C&C failing, the orders are split between C&C and Orange and both end up failing - which is even worse for Glasgow modellers.

 

At the end of the day the factories insist on a minimum order per livery, and making that minimum means liveries can't be done that may well be wanted.

 

 

I don’t think choice of modelling areas is just down to the size of your local population. How many people model areas away from their home station? The vast majority, I suspect. I’m not sure if you fully understand the point about the exclusion of the Carmine &Cream livery, but basically people have flagged up that the livery that was around for the most recent 23 years of a 40 year career. I don’t think direct comparison to the class 320 livery sales is helpful or applicable as they are polar opposites in timescales to liveries applied. Revolution normally open orders to the public before confirming factory orders, so as Mike suggested earlier ‘show me 250-300 orders and we’ll make it’ , the only way to prove this is by offering it. 3 options across a 40 year lifespan doesn’t seem excessive, especially when comparing some of the more obscure options being offered for the class 313.

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6 minutes ago, red death said:

I'm far from convinced that any Strathclyde Orange 314s did last beyond 2006 so yes I completely accept that there is a 5 year gap (just like there is a 4 year gap without blue grey).

 

As to why there are more livery choices on the 313 - partly because without the 313 there would be no 314, there were over 4 times as many 313s, but also that there are natural geographic splits in the 313s that aren't the case for the 314s. Plus there were only ever 4 liveries on the 314s and as we've established you can pick 2 and cover the vast majority of the life. You can't do that with the 313s.

 

Blue grey and NSE are obvious.

Privatisation starts to become more tricky with geographical splits in liveries so we've picked one for each use:

ECML/Great Northern/FCC

West and North London: Silverlink Metro/London Overground

South coast: Southern

 

The heritage blue/grey set we can do as part of the blue/grey offering so is an easy one to do in small numbers.

NR Rail yellow is unique and clearly sells well.

 

Cheers Mike

Hi Mike,

 

You can’t cover 23 years of the C&C era! You said earlier ‘show me 250-300 sales and we’ll do it’ so wouldn’t the easiest thing be to offer the livery when you open the order book. If there’s not enough, I’m more than happy to pipe down, but unless it is offered, we will never know! I also think C&C would be ordered in tandem with the other two liveries either side of it, as they can prototypically can be run together in a wide timespan. I appreciate there were more 313’s than 314’s, but even taking this into account, 3 core liveries doesn’t seem excessive compared to the 7 plus being offered for the 313? 

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