Unusual Wagon

[cctransuk]

I came across this on the RCTS site :-

 

 

Can anyone confirm that the wagons on the right - apparently converted from ex-LNER coach underframes, are intended for carrying (Rootes?) car bodies from the pressing factory to the assembly factory?

 

If so, what was their BR wagon diagram number, please?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

There are mention of these on the Motorail thread hereabouts I believe, from memory used by Rootes and Vauxhall.

 

Mike.

[Mark Saunders]

From memory there were some used for transporting body shells, not sure where I have seen a photo; possibly in the Railway Age?

 

Mark Saunders

[cctransuk]

3 hours ago, cctransuk said:

I came across this on the RCTS site :-

 

 

Can anyone confirm that the wagons on the right - apparently converted from ex-LNER coach underframes, are intended for carrying (Rootes?) car bodies from the pressing factory to the assembly factory?

 

If so, what was their BR wagon diagram number, please?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

A little research in my files identifies BR 1/290 & 1/293 BOCARS - but these are the fairly well known car body transporters with sheeted sides, built on ex-LMS coach underframes.

 

I have a vague memory of having read of a bogie CONFLAT for carrying demountable containers of car bodies - which seems to match what we have in the photo. I can find nothing in my files, though.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[mikeh]

They are Bocar Ps, built to carry car body shells from Pressed Steel at Linwood. See the attached extract from Modern Railways.

Apart from Rover traffic a pool of 22 were dedicated to Linwood-Gosford Green (Coventry) traffic for Rootes from 1968

 

Regards

Mike

 

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, mikeh said:

They are Bocar Ps, built to carry car body shells from Pressed Steel at Linwood. See the attached extract from Modern Railways.

Apart from Rover traffic a pool of 22 were dedicated to Linwood-Gosford Green (Coventry) traffic for Rootes from 1968

 

Regards

Mike

 

 

Sorry, but I don't think so.

 

The BOCAR P was built, apparently, to two diagrams; 1/290 & 1/293; but both batches are stated to be built on ex-LMS coach chassis.

 

BOCAR P

 

The wagons illustrated in the RCTS image are built on ex-LNER turnbuckle coach underframes, and the supporting frames certainly appear to be demountable.

 

The Modern Railways photo which accompanies your post IS the same type as the ones shown in the RCTS photo, and this makes it clear that the car body 'pallets' are demountable; it's not a BOCAR P.

 

It's a shame that the wagon number in the MR photo cannot be read!

 

I do wonder if the RCTS / MR wagons are, in fact, BR Diagram 1/293; of which only eight were built at Derby - the date of building is not given in the BR wagon 'bible' Appendix 1.

 

I wonder if Paul Bartlett can cast any light on this matter?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited September 16, 2019 by cctransuk

[jjnewitt]

The wagon in question is a Conflat BP. I happen to stumble across a picture of half of one of them this morning on page 17 of Steam Across the Northern Fells by Michael S. Welch. The wagon is clearly the one in the first post of this thread with the same open pallets and Gresley bogies. It's labelled in freshly applied white paint CONFLAT-BP.

 

Larkin and Rowland tell us that these were one batch of these built under lot 3370 to diagram 1/096 at Cowlairs between 10/60 and 12/62. Rowland suggests 30 were built but 33 numbers issued B748428-B748460. Larkin suggests 40 numbers B748428-B748467.

 

Justin

[SP Steve]

 

40 minutes ago, jjnewitt said:

The wagon in question is a Conflat BP. I happen to stumble across a picture of half of one of them this morning on page 17 of Steam Across the Northern Fells by Michael S. Welch. The wagon is clearly the one in the first post of this thread with the same open pallets and Gresley bogies. It's labelled in freshly applied white paint CONFLAT-BP.

 

 

Interestingly the BR diagram book shows them as lettered CARFLAT P and the stated use for these vehicles was to carry two BP type containers  to Diagram 3/170 so that is presumably what is illustrated in the two images.

 

The only thing against 1/096 is that according to the Diagram book the wooden flooring was removed to reveal the underframe but in all other respects it fits the bill.

 

Interestingly I found the following announcement regarding traffic between Linwood and Coventry dating from August 1969 which suggests that the Diagram 3/170 Containers may have been a product of Rootes and not British Railways.

 

http://archive.commercialmotor.com/article/8th-august-1969/21/british-rail-and-rootes-f2im-deal

Edited September 17, 2019 by SP Steve
Link added

[jjnewitt]

20 minutes ago, SP Steve said:

Interestingly the BR diagram book shows them as lettered CARFLAT P and the stated use for these vehicles was to carry two BP type containers  to Diagram 3/170 so that is presumably what is illustrated in the two images.

 

The only thing against 1/096 is that according to the Diagram book the wooden flooring was removed to reveal the underframe but in all other respects it fits the bill.

 

Don Rowland does say that they were originally Carflat P. Persumably the change in code was down to someone realising that they were actually Conflats not Carflats?

 

There is indeed no wooden floor on wagons to diagram 1/096 but to me none of the images show a wooden floor on the wagons anyway. There definately isn't one on the wagon in the image in Michael Welch's book. The angle the image is taken at clearly shows that. Looking at the top image there might be a wooden floor on the container though? It does looks like the area on the top of the wagon between the pallets has been plated over and perhaps also at the ends but his wouldn't necessarily make a difference to the diagram.

 

Justin

[markw]

There is another thread about these.

 

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi All

 

Here is the 1/096 diagram. oddly for a BR diagram it shows a plan elevation, as stated earlier on this thread this indicates there was no plating over the chassis, but the photos show there was a least plating at the ends and between the pallets. I have been unable to locate the BR diagram for the pallets.

[cctransuk]

5 hours ago, markw said:

There is another thread about these.

 

 

How could I have forgotten that I identified these wagons and containers more than five years ago ?!?

 

Senility sets in, methinks.

 

tregards,

John Isherwood.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Join the club John!

 

Mike.

[mikeh]

Thanks for correcting me John - should have read my notes before posting....

 

The original Carflat BPs (or Ps?) were for car body traffic from Linwood to Birmingham for Rover and Volvo, using stillages (refered to in BR documents as pallets) originally designed by BRS to carry three car bodies on road trailers. See attached photos.

 

The 1968 Rootes traffic was "Arrow" series bodies to Gosford Green on Bocar P wagons in double-stacked stillages on a contract signed with BR in May 1968. Previously these bodies had been made at Cowley and roaded to Coventry. The contract called for 4 trainsets of 22 wagons and 9 spares. Limited traffic started in June 1968 with a twice daily service ramping up from September.

 

The August 1969 announcement relates to a two-way flow of components in ISO containers on standard liner flats for what was now Chrysler. This started in December 1969 and replaced the Bocar trains as the bodies were now shipped as individual panels for assembly at Ryton and the containers were backloaded with components for Linwood.

 

Mike