Non British industrial locos working in Britain?

[rue_d_etropal]

I have been doing some research for a French project I have been working on, in particular pre warDeutz locos. Deutz is a bit odd with its naming, with its OMZ122 referring to both narrow gauge locos(as done by Busch in HOf) and a bigger standard gauge version. Anyway I was actually after info on an OMZ130 which is very similar to the standard gauge OMZ122. Both are 0-4-0, and there is also an OMD130 which is bigger and is an 0-6-0, but can't find anything on that at all.

I did find some info on the Bagnall diesels and they were selling Deutz engined locos and complete Deutz locos in the 1930s. https://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/50/Letters 50.htm. 

The Bagnall diesel illustrated looks like an OMZ130, but this is the only photo I have found linked to Bagnall.

It is unclear just how many were actually produced or sold as part of this deal, so maybe standard gauge Deutz locos were actually used in Britain.

 

In my searches I did find some other 'foreign' locos used in Britain before WW2.

One was produced by th French compant Gaston Moyse, and supplied to the Atlas Stone Company in Meldeth

http://www.meldrethhistory.org.uk/page_id__67.aspx

The article is a bit misleading as the loco could not have been ex WW1 as the company only started building locos in 1922. I have found that virtually identical ones do still exist in France, also built in 1929. One nice detail on these locos is the brackets used to support the side edge of the cab roof. A bit exotic, and found on other Gaston Moyse locos of the period. I think I have found a drawing of side view, just need to get a good front end photo and will look at doing a model.

 

I found a smaller loco , one of which is plinthed outside a station in France, and  andas I found drawings I thought it might make a nice model

It is about the same size as the Ruston Hornby are doing, and would make a nice alternative. It might even be possible to use same chassis.

 

I wonder if there were any more Gaston Moyse locos working in Britain before WW2.

Edited September 18, 2019 by rue_d_etropal
spell check

[brack]

Deutz model naming makes sense when you realise that the OMZ122 is actually referring to the engine installed (the E, Z or D for the 3rd letter denotes how many cylinders, in german), and the suffix letter after the numbers is either F for feldbahn on narrow gauge locos or R for rangierlok on standard gauge locos. So the NG one is an OMZ122F and the standard gauge OMZ122R.

 

Bagnall only built the 11 locos listed in the IRS correspondence. The loco pictured is metre gauge, the only standard gauge loco built was for FH Lloyd's steel foundry and it lasted til 1957. Since FH Lloyd were a big supplier of castings to bagnall it might have been offered on good terms to get a loco out there and working?

It did not look like the deutz built locos with the same engine (OMZ130) and certainly didnt match the 2 standard gauge locos pictured in bagnall's publicity material (retouched photos of deutz products in germany). Theres a photo in Baker and civil's big book of bagnalls.

[rue_d_etropal]

Bagnalls might have only built those 11 locos, but did deutz supply anyone direct. The metre gauge one shown is same as the one I am interested in in France. I wnder if there are any drawings, otherwise I might be able to work it out from photo,plus dimensions listed.

I also found a standard gauge conversion of an OMZ122F, which might make an interesting model.

[EddieB]

Yes, Deutz did supply some diesels directly to UK industry.  Here are two of the earliest:

 

Deutz 1325/1913 600mm gauge (as listed) 0-4-0 type C XII to Votty & Bowydd Slate Quarries & Cie. Ltd., Portmadoc

Deutz 1549/1949 508mm gauge 0-4-0 type C XIV to West Kent Main Sewerage Board, Bromley (another of the same type in 1921)

 

Not part of the UK, but Deutz did supply numerous locomotives to Bord Na Mona in Ireland in the early 'sixties.

[rue_d_etropal]

Did Deutz supply any standard gauge locos direct?

 

Also any other foreign manufacturers. Plenty of ones supplying narrow gauge but any standard gauge?

Just been working on a design for Baldwin 50hp gas mechanical, some of which were converted to standard gauge, but I wonder idf any cold have been converted to standard gauge for use in Britain.

There some more basic conversions(wheels just moved out) . One of these has now been brought back to Apedale for conversion back to narrow gauge. One of the ones like above has been preserved in France. Some had extra side strips to protect people from coupling rods, and one had cab exteded sideways(not pretty). Would make an interesting model, a bit steampunk!

[EddieB]

It’s hard to make definitive negative statements, but as far as I can tell, Deutz only supplied narrow gauge locomotives directly to British industry. (In fact, the only standard gauge Deutz locos in this country were the former DB class 211 employed at Cheriton).

 

Perhaps the largest “foreign” supplier of i/c locomotives was Orenstein & Koppel, from their Nordhausen factory. Again, these appear to have been of narrow gauge exclusively.

 

Other manufacturers were responsible for some standard gauge locomotives in the UK.  There’s a thread elsewhere making reference to GE 44-tonners, for example.

[rue_d_etropal]

I deliberately have not mentioned the GE44s, or the GE45s as they have been covered elsewhere. Pity Bachmann did notdo a European version of GE45 unde Liliput label, as I have one of the Liliput GE44 locos .

It is always difficult to prove a negative, so there may have been other 'foreign' locos imported. 1932 is still early for diesel development and German companies were ahead in the field.  Blackstone in Stamford had developed their own oil/diesel engine totally sepoarately and were allowed to continue, but other companies were starting to work in the field, and still had the 'Empire' to targetfor custom.

I was surprised to come across the French Gaston Moyse loco being used in the UK, especially as it had replaced a standard gauge Simplex. I will have to work out drawings for that specific type of loco. Other industrial/light railways we experimenting with i/c locos such as the North Sunderland, but the 1930s wre also a time of bad economics and so proping up traditional manufacturing (ie steam locomanufacture) might have been seen as a better choice, requiring less investment. WW1 War surplus locos were now wearing out so new manufacted locos would be required, and we were still mining a lot of coal and possibly wary of being too dependant on foreign oil.

[doctor quinn]

More recently pair of Moyse 4 wheel locos were supplied to Shell Teesport in 1976. I’ve not been able to find a picture online but there is one in the AJ Booth’s book A Pictorial Survey of Standard Gauge Industrial Diesels  

[Mark Saunders]

27 minutes ago, doctor quinn said:

More recently pair of Moyse 4 wheel locos were supplied to Shell Teesport in 1976. I’ve not been able to find a picture online but there is one in the AJ Booth’s book A Pictorial Survey of Standard Gauge Industrial Diesels  

 

From memory there were three and were sold to Stockton Haulage, one was scrapped and I believe one was at Stranraer with the other at Cargo Fleet . I believe both still exist and are now owned by Ed Murray of Hartlepool who recently had one on hire to the Beam Mill at Lackenby.

 

Mark Saunders 

[john new]

On 29/09/2019 at 21:52, Mark Saunders said:

 

From memory there were three and were sold to Stockton Haulage, one was scrapped and I believe one was at Stranraer with the other at Cargo Fleet . I believe both still exist and are now owned by Ed Murray of Hartlepool who recently had one on hire to the Beam Mill at Lackenby.

 

Mark Saunders 

That is broadly what Is stated in the recent Amberley book on N East industrials. Photo of one of the examples in the Stockton Haulage livery is included.

Edited October 2, 2019 by john new

[pete_mcfarlane]

If you want an exotic foreign built Industrial loco, then they don't come stranger than the Shay at Bilston. Bought during that brief period where UK builders couldn't keep up with demand so locos were imported from the US (Midland Baldwins, Lynton and Barnstable 'Lyn' etc).  

 

https://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/23/Shay.htm

 

[clarkea1]

There were some rather large Alco's supplied to Steel Company of Wales for Port Talbot steelworks....

 

Flickr photo of Port Talbot Alco

 

Alastair

[Regularity]

19 minutes ago, clarkea1 said:

There were some rather large Alco's

As ever, a relative term. In North American terms, these were rather small....

[Mark Saunders]

12 minutes ago, Regularity said:

As ever, a relative term. In North American terms, these were rather small....

 

By what standard are you saying they are small?

 

I understood it that they are just a normal S1 design of which 5 were built for Port Talbot, 801 - 805

 

801 has been restored but I am unsure of the fate of 804 after preservation?

[Regularity]

33 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

By what standard are you saying they are small?

Power output (600hp) and physical size.

Compared to (say) an SW1500, they are small.

Compared to an ES44AC, they are tiny.

[brack]

They were the smallest and lowest powered loco that Alco made for their domestic market at the time of purchase.

Yes, there were smaller locos around, but by the late 40s when they were built class 1 railroads had mostly moved to 900-1000hp for switchers and 1350-1600hp for cab units or road switchers - the 660hp models didnt last long in builders catalogues post 1950, alco turning out the last S1/S3 in 53, which is pretty much when EMD stopped making SW1s.

Just because in 1949 we'd decided the shunters of 204 or 350hp were good enough (and were still building pregrouping steam shunters) doesnt make a 660hp loco big by it's own manufacturer's standards.

[russ p]

I believe there is one on a site in Northumberland which has one which actually runs and another on the nene valley which I believe was recently under a scrapping threat 

[Michael Edge]

The Alcos were well out of gauge for UK - which led to subsequent SCoW locos being too wide for use here outside the Port Talbot steelworks system.

[TomJ]

Foster Yeoman brought a US General Motors switcher for shunting at Merehead. It was partly their experience with it that lead to their acquiring the class 59 from GM

[Fat Controller]

3 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

The Alcos were well out of gauge for UK - which led to subsequent SCoW locos being too wide for use here outside the Port Talbot steelworks system.

When BR concentrated all traffic on the 'Knuckle Yard at Margam, and shut the hump yard, they modified the track spacing to accommodate the steelwork's locos. 

[Nearholmer]

Going back to small internal combustion locos, Deutz were not the only suppliers direct into the UK, O&K (marketed as Montania, the original name of the make, in Britain) have been mentioned, and they had a very active agent, but Ruhrthaler also supplied a few, and had a London agent. I get confused about Jung, because they licensed their designs to Stansteco in Croydon, so may not have supplied direct.

 

And, there were a few Baldwins, a couple of Montreal Locomotive Works (steam), and other o&s on c2ft Gauge too.

 

The ‘OM’ in the 1930s Deutz designation means ‘otto motor’, and the numbers give either bore and stroke, or capacity, I can’t remember which, in cm or cubic cm.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Nearholmer

[johnst]

A Garston Moyse Locotracteur was bought for use at the newly opened Michelin Tyre Factory in Stoke-on-Trent, Staffordshire, in the 1920's. 

I will post details if I can locate them. 

[john new]

On 29/09/2019 at 21:52, Mark Saunders said:

 

From memory there were three and were sold to Stockton Haulage, one was scrapped and I believe one was at Stranraer with the other at Cargo Fleet . I believe both still exist and are now owned by Ed Murray of Hartlepool who recently had one on hire to the Beam Mill at Lackenby.

 

Mark Saunders 

 Several photos of the Ed Murray locos on their Facebook page (You need to browse as many non-railway images too). Link = https://www.facebook.com/pg/edmurraytransport/photos/?ref=page_internal

Edited October 17, 2019 by john new

[rue_d_etropal]

On 17/10/2019 at 12:18, johnst said:

A Garston Moyse Locotracteur was bought for use at the newly opened Michelin Tyre Factory in Stoke-on-Trent, Staffordshire, in the 1920's. 

I will post details if I can locate them. 

that sounds interesting.

[Andy Kirkham]

There were "Cambrai" and "Nantes" - French metre gauge 0-6-0Ts that worked on Waltham Iron Ore Tramway The former is preserved at the Irchester Narrow Gauge Museum