GWR Coal Drops & loading/unloading of coal in towns and goods yards

[Fat Controller]

Just now, MarshLane said:

 

I think that is tipping into a single barge, so no means of direction was really needed.

I realised that after posting....Presumably, there were locations that were more easily supplied by canal, than by other means, even with the double-handling involved.

[MarshLane]

On 20/09/2019 at 05:37, Mikkel said:

Source: Britian from Above,   https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW006450 (BTW, is that a Jinty in the larger photo? I did check that it was Acton GWR). 

 

Hi Mikkel,

Having looked at a couple of the adjacent shots, yes it is clearly a Jinty with LMS on the side. At Acton that would presumably have come down the incline at Acton Wells Jn with a trip Freight from Willesden, Cricklewood or the surrounding area? It opens up another motive power option for the layout!

 

The various info that one initial question has thrown up really is wonderful - to me this is rmWeb at its best!

 

Rich

[Mikkel]

12 hours ago, Rising Standards said:

 

 

Right by the roadside section of the SVR's car park. Here's a rough snip from a well known online map service.

 

This intrigues me. Those look like proper coal drops yet I've not seen that on the GWR system before. They look fairly modern, so hardly from before the GWR took over?  There are a few more photos here but no info on their origin.

 

13 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Yes, I thought that the GWR depot at Poplar was "goods", not "coal", but the map says "goods and coal", and there were sidings outside of the big warehouse/shed buildings, plus a very curious building at the head of the dock, with access from wagon turntables, which just might have been a covered coal drop. 

 

More info needed!

 

I can recommend Tony Atkins' "Great Western Docks and Marine". It has many details of a part of the GWR empire that we don't hear that much about. Also a well illustrated section on coal tips, cranes etc. I was particularly taken by a photo from Alexandra North Dock  at Newport, in which wagons arrive on rails elevated on beams to a similarly elevated traverser of sorts. Would make quite a model.

 

PS: The book says about Poplar that there was a bit of coal and coke shipped out (a few thousand tons annually , very little received) but that 10-20.000 tons of "other minerals" were shipped out. I can't find any explanation for the building you mention.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Mikkel

[Nearholmer]

The other option that occurred to me is that the odd building might be a small wagon repair shop, to deal with injuries in transit.

[Fat Controller]

16 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

We’ve found one then!

 

What we need now is a good photo.......

 

Coal is mentioned as one of the traffics in the Wikipedia history of Brentford Dock, but the one that caught my attention was coke. An oft-forgotten fuel, which again must have been distributed by barge.

 

Brentford Dock not only served the Thames, but the river/canal going north, and thereby the paper-making industry around Watford, so i’d Bet welsh coal went that way too, because the paper mills were all next to water and ate coal for drying purposes.

 

 

Probably also china clay for the paper industry.

[Fat Controller]

15 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Not GWR, but another interesting picture https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nostalgia-Postcard-Poplar-Docks-in-East-London-June1898-WK7-2/273622038553 Coal wagons, with "Chatterley" on the side, with what look like coke raves fitted to them, being side-tipped into a barge at Poplar. The caption says "coal for export", but whether it be coal or coke, my bet is that it is for London consumption, not abroad.

 

The same photo again, but far better captioned, plus another really good one of coal being end-tipped into a barge (keep scrolling down) https://www.railwaymen-nlr.org.uk/general-notes/

Interesting to see a 'Chatterley wagon there; the pit was in North Staffs, IIRC

[Nearholmer]

The better caption is worth a read - it is from Staffs, but not Chatterley-Whitfield (or whatever it was called) coal pit. I think what is is telling us is that it contains coke, from Chatterley Iron & Chemical Co.

Edited September 21, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Fat Controller]

Regarding Brentford Docks; the water surface was bigger than it looks, as the left-hand building with the 'sawtooth' roof is a covered dock. 

[Welchester]

18 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Best practice, then.

 

My grandfather worked for that company, my father for the other, so I have divided loyalties.

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Not GWR, but another interesting picture https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nostalgia-Postcard-Poplar-Docks-in-East-London-June1898-WK7-2/273622038553 Coal wagons, with "Chatterley" on the side, with what look like coke raves fitted to them, being side-tipped into a barge at Poplar. The caption says "coal for export", but whether it be coal or coke, my bet is that it is for London consumption, not abroad.

 

The same photo again, but far better captioned, plus another really good one of coal being end-tipped into a barge (keep scrolling down) https://www.railwaymen-nlr.org.uk/general-notes/

If anyone is interested in Poplar Dock - here you go -

 

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/survey-london/vols43-4/pp336-341

[The Stationmaster]

6 hours ago, MarshLane said:

 

Hi Mikkel,

Having looked at a couple of the adjacent shots, yes it is clearly a Jinty with LMS on the side. At Acton that would presumably have come down the incline at Acton Wells Jn with a trip Freight from Willesden, Cricklewood or the surrounding area? It opens up another motive power option for the layout!

 

The various info that one initial question has thrown up really is wonderful - to me this is rmWeb at its best!

 

Rich

LMS, and later LMR, powered  trips worked regularly into Acton several times a day so Jinties would have been a far from unusual sight there.

[62613]

17 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Even with the angle of the sun (in the south-east), there does seem to be an unusually large number of white van roofs on display. (And somewhat ironic, given that 1939 was the year the GWR threw in the towel and started painting roofs grey.)

 

 

 

Are they neccessarily GWR wagons, given the almost universal common carrier arrangements?

 

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, 62613 said:

 

Are they neccessarily GWR wagons, given the almost universal common carrier arrangements?

 

 

The pooling arrangements ought to result in a statistical proportion of roughly 17:15:5:2 LMS:LNER:GWR:SR but this could easily break down if the location was dominated by a particular traffic requiring specialised non-pool vehicles, e.g. banana vans. All the vans in the photo seem to have the same lighter patch just right of centre - open doors? If they are cupboard doors, that strongly suggests GW vehicles.

 

@Miss Prism, would the change from white to grey roofs be associated with a change in paint technology, e.g. ceasing to use white lead, or a change in roofing material, away from canvas?

[57xx]

On 21/09/2019 at 00:05, Miss Prism said:

 

Even with the angle of the sun (in the south-east), there does seem to be an unusually large number of white van roofs on display. (And somewhat ironic, given that 1939 was the year the GWR threw in the towel and started painting roofs grey.)

 

 

 

Probably larger than "normal" than most of the other shots I have come across on Britain From Above that contain numerous white roofs, but yet more evidence that they are not the unicorns of internet mythology.  

 

The rounded corners on the roofs and visible seam lines on a lot of them suggest these are iron minks. Quite what so many would be doing in one place is a another question (albeit nothing to do with the OP). Is the large white X on the right hand doors a clue to a specific type of traffic carried in them? I can't recall seeing these before in any pics.

 

 

 

[57xx]

On 21/09/2019 at 18:02, 62613 said:

 

Are they neccessarily GWR wagons, given the almost universal common carrier arrangements?

 

 

As my per previous post above, the ones on the 4 adjacent lines look to be  all the same diagram and of GWR origin. Also, the LMS hadn't painted their roofs white since at least 1935 so that would probably rule them out. There are some LMS opens clearly visible, but overall the picture is not showing a statistical average of Big Four wagons.

[Mikkel]

45 minutes ago, 57xx said:

 Is the large white X on the right hand doors a clue to a specific type of traffic carried in them? I can't recall seeing these before in any pics.

 

The large white X means that they are for use within the docks only, and were "not to travel more than a limited distance" on the mainline, as Tony Atkins puts it (GW Docks & Marine p17). They were used to move transit goods from ship to warehouse or transit shed or vice versa and were typically downgraded mainline vans or opens.

 

That same book has a photo of an Iron Mink featuring the large white X on the right hand door in post-1936 livery, with the words "For use at Cardiff docks only" on the left hand side. The Opens had the white X in the middle of the side. 

 

Edited to clarify

Edited September 22, 2019 by Mikkel

[wagonman]

36 minutes ago, 57xx said:

 

Probably larger than "normal" than most of the other shots I have come across on Britain From Above that contain numerous white roofs, but yet more evidence that they are not the unicorns of internet mythology.  

 

The rounded corners on the roofs and visible seam lines on a lot of them suggest these are iron minks. Quite what so many would be doing in one place is a another question (albeit nothing to do with the OP). Is the large white X on the right hand doors a clue to a specific type of traffic carried in them? I can't recall seeing these before in any pics.

 

 

 

 

Normally a white cross indicated that the vehicle was 'internal user' – in this case for the Docks Dept. Such vehicles were withdrawn from Traffic Dept lists and renumbered. (some of) the registers are at Kew I believe.

[57xx]

Thanks Mikkel and Richard. I guess the docks were a retirement home for the minks then.

[MarshLane]

On 20/09/2019 at 05:37, Mikkel said:

 

This sounds like an interesting layout! Typically from what I have seen, GWR coal merchant's facilities in the cities were just like the small ones, only larger and distributed around different sidings in the company's system within that city . There are some nice shots of larger coal yards in the GWR Goods Services  series, I can PM you a couple later today.

 

You could also have a look at Britian from Above. Here is Acton Mainline in 1947:

 

Source: Britian from Above,   https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EAW006450 (BTW, is that a Jinty in the larger photo? I did check that it was Acton GWR). 

 

 

Coming back on topic slightly (!) and returning to the BFA image that Mikkel referred to ... would these staithes (again, I am assuming there is a proper name that I cannot think of here) have been operated by one single coal merchant/agent, or could there have been several agents operating from the same yard, and the different storage areas would have been used for different types of coal?

 

Rich

[wagonman]

34 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

 

Coming back on topic slightly (!) and returning to the BFA image that Mikkel referred to ... would these staithes (again, I am assuming there is a proper name that I cannot think of here) have been operated by one single coal merchant/agent, or could there have been several agents operating from the same yard, and the different storage areas would have been used for different types of coal?

 

Rich

 

In larger yards like Acton there would typically have been several coal merchants at work each handling several grades of coal, stored in separate cells, or sometimes just in heaps on the ground. The storage space would have been rented from the GWR. Some very small or impecunious dealers would have transferred the coal from the wagon directly into sacks on their dray, thereby avoiding rent and, if they're quick about it, demurrage charges on the colliery company's wagon. If the merchant has his own wagon sometimes he would use it as a storage bunker, particularly in summer when demand was low, but might well have to pay siding rent. It's a business with many variables.                                                                                                                         

[Pobrien]

Local coal merchant's premises at Lawrence Hill Goods Depot, Bristol, adjacent to the Midland mainline

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

Note use of oil drums for the coal stack walls. I'm pretty sure that in earlier years this would have been a drystone wall of large lumps of coal. Large lumps are often seen being used for this purpose, and in wagonloads, in late 19th/early 20th century photos. When and why did coal in such large lumps cease to be distributed?

[doilum]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Note use of oil drums for the coal stack walls. I'm pretty sure that in earlier years this would have been a drystone wall of large lumps of coal. Large lumps are often seen being used for this purpose, and in wagonloads, in late 19th/early 20th century photos. When and why did coal in such large lumps cease to be distributed?

It may have happened earlier due to customer demand, but the introduction of mechanised coal cutters drastically reduced the lump of coal.    Likewise the switch to conveyor belts broke up the coal before it reached the surface. From family sources: at the start of the 20th century coal at Dom Pedro near Normanton was loaded underground with a fork. Anything too small to sit on the fork was left underground. This helps explain why areas previously worked by deep mining were reworked by opencasting in the post war years.

I may have posted the story before, but my grandfather recalled starting work aged 14 at Briggs Whitwood colliery in 1913. He was working with the man who put destination tickets on wagons when a train full of coal arrived back. It had been returned by an unhappy London merchant who, having emptied the first wagon, swept it out and managed to fill a whole sack with dust and singles.

So the answer to the question is probably from the mid 1920s. My great uncles were coal leaders and even in the 1960s large lumps were still prized if available. Mechanisation reduced the cost of coal and this probably influenced customer demand. By the end of the industry most of the coal went to power stations who pulverized it before blowing it into the boilers.

[Fat Controller]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Note use of oil drums for the coal stack walls. I'm pretty sure that in earlier years this would have been a drystone wall of large lumps of coal. Large lumps are often seen being used for this purpose, and in wagonloads, in late 19th/early 20th century photos. When and why did coal in such large lumps cease to be distributed?

They were certainly around in the late 1960s; we got them from the local merchant, whilst my nan had them as concessionary coal. Guess who got to improve his hammer technique, breaking them up?

[Miss Prism]

Loading direct from wagon to lorry:

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mralv606.htm