GWR Coal Drops & loading/unloading of coal in towns and goods yards

[doilum]

3 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

They were certainly around in the late 1960s; we got them from the local merchant, whilst my nan had them as concessionary coal. Guess who got to improve his hammer technique, breaking them up?

Around but no longer the norm. Big lumps were prized as they burned long into the night without constant attention. Open cast mines continued to remove large lumps. We too had a small pick axe in the coal cellar but that is another story. My abiding memories of coal were, from the age of 7or8, humping the coal scuttle up the cellar steps and barrowing loose tipped coal from the street round to the coal hole. By the age of around 14 I was expected to have a ton put away and swept up within the hour. 

[Phil Traxson]

On 23/09/2019 at 14:59, Miss Prism said:

Loading direct from wagon to lorry:

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mralv606.htm

 

Just out of interest , looking at the size of the sacks on the lorry (compared to the person) they look taller than coal sacks and the two nearest wagons appear to have high sides, it looks as though the nearest two wagons were possibly coke rather than coal.

[Phil Traxson]

On 20/09/2019 at 21:32, Nearholmer said:

I just remembered, the GWR did have a depot at Poplar Dock and, checking the 1:1056 maps, it was goods and coal. 

 

What I can't tell from the map is how the coal was unloaded, though. Or, maybe it was loaded to rail there, not unloaded from rail.

 

The trouble with trying to understand coal flows in London is that, even after the railways arrived, a lot of coal still came down the east coast by boat, and up the Thames, then was distributed locally by barge or rail, so two full coal wagons could pass one another, one going from Wales or the Midlands to the docks/river to be tipped into a barge, the other taking coals from Newcastle to a merchant in a yard in North London.

 

 

I was working in the ship repair yards in North Shields on Tyne side for a while in 1966 and there was still a constant stream of "flat iron " colliers (small coal ships) to be seen, mostly registered in London, full out, empty in, even this late period. Twenty years later there were no coalmines left in the North East to supply them.  

[MarshLane]

58 minutes ago, Phil Traxson said:

Just out of interest , looking at the size of the sacks on the lorry (compared to the person) they look taller than coal sacks and the two nearest wagons appear to have high sides, it looks as though the nearest two wagons were possibly coke rather than coal.

 

Interesting observation Phil.  The quality of the image isn't great, so its difficult to tell, but are the front two 16-ton minerals?  The back two either look like 7-plank or 5-planks with the coke extender boards, I cannot quite decipher?

 

Rich

[jim.snowdon]

1 hour ago, MarshLane said:

 

Interesting observation Phil.  The quality of the image isn't great, so its difficult to tell, but are the front two 16-ton minerals?  The back two either look like 7-plank or 5-planks with the coke extender boards, I cannot quite decipher?

 

Rich

I'd go along with Phil's observation, in as much as the nearer two wagons look to be wooden bodied coke wagons, built as such rather than being standard 7-plank wagons with coke raves to increase the depth.

 

Jim

[MarshLane]

Earlier in this thread, the conversation touched on Poplar Docks. Both for my own convenience in the future, and to complete the details, the British History website (See here) gives the following details about the buildings, but nothing on the coal front.

“Three goods depots were built on the quays of the 1875–7 barge dock extension. The Great Western and Great Northern railway companies rented buildings erected by the North London Railway Company, and the London and North Western Railway Company built its own warehouse.

The Great Western Railway Goods Depot, on the west quay of the dock extension, was built in 1876–8 by John Cardus to plans by William Baker and Thomas Matthews at a cost of £24,000 (Plate 60d). Swingler & Company of Derby supplied the ironwork. (fn. 6) The depot measured 218ft by 130ft, with a 20ft-high open ground floor and a cellar below the platform. The two upper storeys were supported on wrought-iron girders weighing up to 30 tons, 30 large hollow-cylindrical cast-iron columns on 5 ½ft-square granite bed-stones and foundations 30ft deep. The triple-span slate roof was iron and timber framed and an awning over the dock was extended upwards in front of the loopholes. The road on the other side had glazed roofing as cover for carts. There was a two-storey office building to the north with smaller offices to the south, and seven internal cranes, three on the quay and four on the platform. Locomotives stopped at turntables outside the station and wagons were hauled in by hydraulic capstan, to be unloaded either directly into barges or into the warehouse above. Iron, machinery and hardware were the main goods handled at the depot, but the Great Western Railway Company was said to refuse nothing. The depot was destroyed in 1940.”

[SM42]

I recall some sort of arrangement for dropping coal at Gobowen (I think) , behind the station. the coal dropped into a pit under ground and was distributed by a rotating conveyor above ground.

Somewhere I have a picture. 

How old it is I don't know so may not be genuine GWR

 

 Found some pictures. See here

 

Andy

 

Edit to add link I hope

Edited September 28, 2019 by SM42

[keefer]

Regarding Poplar, there is a 1906 RCH Junction Diagram - this shows a GW Goods

(Image stated to be in public domain - https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Millwall_Docks_(Harrow_Lane)_%26_Poplar_RJD_56.jpg#mw-jump-to-license )

Edited September 28, 2019 by keefer

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, keefer said:

Regarding Poplar, there is a 1906 RCH Junction Diagram - this shows a GW Goods

(Image stated to be in public domain - https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Millwall_Docks_(Harrow_Lane)_%26_Poplar_RJD_56.jpg#mw-jump-to-license )

It's shown to better detail effect as far as the depots are concerned in the link I posted previously -

 

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/survey-london/vols43-4/pp336-341 

 

And of course the GWR's Poplar Branch (which still carries that name) left the GWML at Acton.

[keefer]

Thanks Mike, missed that one before.

Always fascinating to see the arrangements for company depots deep in 'foreign' territory 

[Andy Keane]

I have read this topic with much interest. I am modelling Helston and the coal / coke handling there seems to be somewhat mixed. There were staithes in the loco shed line, staithes in the goods shed loop and photos of coal or perhpas coke being unloaded from an embankment beyond the goods shed loop. The station supplied the Helston Gas company who owned five of their own 7 plank wagons. What I am not sure of is exactly how the coal / coke was handled from the embankment - from the photos they were not tipping the wagons and I have no evidence of a bottom drop facility - so would unloading have been simply done by hand but using the embankment to make it easier work or maybe some simple form of fixed shute was in place? As yet I have not found a clear enough photo to be certain but it is interesting that there were these three distinct coal / coke traffics. So at the danger of reopening this converstaion, my question is basically the same as the one that started this thread - what did they do in a small branch line station, given there was a convenient embankment next to the road leading into the goods yards and enough traffic for a local gas company to own five wagons of their own?

Andy

[The Stationmaster]

Andy - as there was a gas works locally would there have been any need for the station to receive coke?   That would perhaps be a possibility after the RN airfield was constructed as it might well have had lots of coke fired stoves well beyond the capacity of the local gas works to supply.

 

A quick search on the 'net revealed a source (not Wiki) which says that a typical gas works would produce 70 tons of coke for every 100 tons of coal the works consumed to produce coal gas

Edited October 31, 2021 by The Stationmaster

[MR Chuffer]

20 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

70 tons of coke for every 100 tons of coal the works consumed to produce coal gas

Plus, of course, coal tar that needed handling.

[Andy Keane]

28 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

Plus, of course, coal tar that needed handling.

I had forgotten that coke was the output not the input for the gas works. Clearly they would not have wanted to load up an embankment! So there is also some evidence of coal or coke being handled right at the end of the goods platform siding. It got extended a little beyond the goods platform between 1907 and 1945. Perhaps coal came into the embankment, down some slight shute into carts, while coke came back to the goods siding for manual loading. This perhaps explains the need for five wagons.  No idea how they would have loaded tar though. Maybe tanker wagons were used on that siding extension, coal tar out and perhaps motor spirit and aviation fuel in.

regards

Andy

Edited October 31, 2021 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

26 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

Plus, of course, coal tar that needed handling.

But Culdrose started in 1943 so maybe not aviation fuel on my model!

[Andy Keane]

So can now justify a tar wagon for my yards - happy days.

[MR Chuffer]

1 hour ago, Andy Keane said:

Perhaps coal came into the embankment, down some slight shute into carts

It did just that in the town I'm modelling, Barnoldswick in Yorkshire (at the time), when they extended the coal sidings about 1907. Side door wagons, push the coal straight into a cell or waiting wagon at a lower level.

 

And the coke didn't have to be shipped out as it was a premium product for domestic fuel and also in other industrial processes e.g. smithies, forges/metal bashing.

Edited October 31, 2021 by MR Chuffer

[Andy Keane]

16 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

It did just that in the town I'm modelling, Barnoldswick in Yorkshire (at the time), when they extended the coal sidings about 1907. Side door wagons, push the coal straight into a cell or waiting wagon at a lower level.

 

And the coke didn't have to be shipped out as it was a premium product for domestic fuel and also in other industrial processes e.g. smithies, forges/metal bashing.

Might you have or know of a photo of this area of the station? - I am quite interested to see what they might have looked like. Brick ot concrete construction, how many bays, arrangements for carts at the lower level etc.

thanks

Andy

ps - have now placed an order for a Dapol coal tar wagon - any excuse will do :-)

[Fat Controller]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Andy - as there was a gas works locally would there have been any need for the station to receive coke?   That would perhaps be a possibility after the RN airfield was constructed as it might well have had lots of coke fired stoves well beyond the capacity of the local gas works to supply.

 

A quick search on the 'net revealed a source (not Wiki) which says that a typical gas works would produce 70 tons of coke for every 100 tons of coal the works consumed to produce coal gas

Given the relative density of coke in relation to coal, the volumes would have been about the same. 

[Nearholmer]

Which makes sense really, given that coke is coal reduced to a Crunchy-bar texture by the driving-off of the volatiles - it doesn’t get a great deal smaller in overall volume in the process, just lighter, and porous.

[MR Chuffer]

40 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

photo of this area of the station

Try this and scroll down (its slow to load but well worth it). And checkout the 1909 map in here for context regarding the coal drops.

 

BTW - I think the Dapol rectank model has a 10' wheelbase against the more likely 9' wb, see slaters kits occasionally on ebay for a more accurate model.

Edited October 31, 2021 by MR Chuffer

[Andy Keane]

3 hours ago, MR Chuffer said:

Try this and scroll down (its slow to load but well worth it). And checkout the 1909 map in here for context regarding the coal drops.

 

BTW - I think the Dapol rectank model has a 10' wheelbase against the more likely 9' wb, see slaters kits occasionally on ebay for a more accurate model.

Oh what a great set of images - did you put these together? Picture 11 of the coal drops is exactly what I had in mind. I wonder if the embankment at Helston was similar.

I tried going on to pages 2 onwards but these linke seem broken.

regards

Andy

[MR Chuffer]

1 hour ago, Andy Keane said:

you put these together?

No, I came across them researching Barnoldswick, just some guy with a passion for the subject has put together a treasure trove of information across several sites dating back to prehistoric times.

[Nick Holliday]

This is how Oxted Gasworks, on the LBSCR, seemed to have transferred coal from the high level line to the works at low level. Photo courtesy of Britain From Above.

[Andy Keane]

1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

This is how Oxted Gasworks, on the LBSCR, seemed to have transferred coal from the high level line to the works at low level. Photo courtesy of Britain From Above.

That looks like some kind of ramp - I imagine lowering a laden cart down that might have been exciting. This whole business of moving coal is quite fascinating. I know, for example, that canal boats carrying coal had to manually shovel it out at journey's end and this would be done by a couple of men with shovels shifting 20 odd tons - that is what I call proper work.