Yellow ends

[Gwiwer]

On 23/09/2019 at 06:40, daveyb said:

The yellow seems to have changed over the years with the GSYE looking more orangey hue than the later BFYE, but that may be contrast and film aging. I know that the yellow for ends is supposed to be specific hue that fades to pink quite readily. It's interesting to see that the yellow Thunderbirds and the Colas liveries bit had slightly different shades of yellow for the noses compared with the main body.

 

 

Different shades of yellow have most definitely been used over the years.  In earlier years some SR units wore a lightly paler version which was unofficially described by some of us as "lemon".  This was applied to the first batch of 4-Cig and 4-Big units but all later deliveries had a darker shade known to us as "Custard" from new.  When units from different batches were coupled the difference was quite noticeable.  In those cases, at least, the same shade was used for the first class lining as for the front ends.  

 

It may well have depended upon where the stock was painted as 2-Bil and 2-Hal units repainted at Lancing or Selhurst always (except for unit 2666) wore the darker curstard shade.  We assumed the paler lemon was applied at workshops when the units were new but they seemed to retain it on first repaint from green into blue-grey.  2666 wore a unique shade which would be described as faded lemon.  I don't know its history well enough but it is possible this unit was repainted somewhere other than Lancing or Selhurst maybe after accident repairs which might imply Eastleigh.  Or it might have been stored outside for an extended period awaiting repairs.  

 

Jumping ahead many years and the new SWR livery uses a much paler shade - definitely in the lemon spectrum - than other TOCs for both the warning panels and first class markings.  When seen adjacent to any other unit the difference is quite significant.  These units are dealt with in different locations; diesel sets at Salisbury, 442s at Bournemouth (plus 444040 and 450111, the only others done so far).  Despite obvious indecision as to the main livery application and style - witness the large number of variations on the diesel units - it appears the yellow is a standard shade for all SWR applications.

 

There is some element of colour perception which creates apparent variation to our eyes and between pairs of eyes, also weathering takes its toll.  But it is safe to say that more than one shade of yellow has been, and remains, in use.

 

London Underground, whose trains share NR tracks on the Richmond, Wimbledon and Harrow routes plus run alongside them in other places, uses red.  The lower half of every leading end is red while the upper is white.  I have sometimes wondered how that is allowed for in the paperwork that surrounds such things these days.  I am not aware of NR / TOC staff having been trained to regard red as a warning in the same way as yellow.  

[brianusa]

Its a bit ironic that for years the railways got along with a red buffer beam and oil lamps.

    Brian

PS. and lots of noise!

Edited September 27, 2019 by brianusa
add

[newbryford]

1 minute ago, brianusa said:

Its a bit ironic that for years the railways got along with a red buffer beam and oil lamps.

    Brian.

 

And lots of noise...................

[Nearholmer]

"London Underground, whose trains share NR tracks on the Richmond, Wimbledon and Harrow routes plus run alongside them in other places, uses red.  The lower half of every leading end is red while the upper is white.  I have sometimes wondered how that is allowed for in the paperwork that surrounds such things these days.  I am not aware of NR / TOC staff having been trained to regard red as a warning in the same way as yellow." 

 

My understanding of this is that:

 

- the red in the LU livery wasn't put there to aid visibility, but to decrease the visibility of the after affects of unfortunate events;

 

- that the visibility feature to LU trains is the headlamps, which they had well before the same became normal on the national railway;

 

- that the safety cases for operation of LU trains on LU and on NR infrastructure are based, in respect of visibility, around the lamps.

 

So, I wouldn't necessarily expect anyone to be trained to regard red as a warning in this context, but for everyone to be trained to regard headlamps as a warning.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by Nearholmer

[MidlandRed]

Id also presumed in respect of LU trains, that staff walking around on the tracks, when trains are in operation or the public crossing lines would not occur, in contrast to NR track (although NR seem to be trying their best, on some routes, to close all of the footpath crossings - GEML having been a recent example). 

 

Im interested that it was considered previously that having yellow fronts and lights was safe as reasonably practicable for various reasons. I happened to look north along the ECML from the footbridge at Huntingdon recently and in the far distance approaching was a class 700 - the sun was shining on it and the yellow panel was far clearer than the lights (it was a very long way off). 

 

It it is worrying when 'artistic integrity', to the degree some might consider pedantic and somewhat self indulgent overrides safety. This is something I've experienced professionally, first-hand in some 'shared space' highway schemes - the artists (in that instance, architects) are long gone when the operational problems set in!! 

Edited September 27, 2019 by MidlandRed

[Nearholmer]

People legitimately on track while trains are running is very limited on LU infrastructure, but can still occur (on surface sections, and then only on lines with trains under manual control, which means less and less, IIRC), but what I think GWiwer was getting at was the fact that LU trains run for considerable distances either on NR infrastructure, intermingled with yellow-fronted trains, or right alongside NR infrastructure, in some places with no barrier between the two.

 

Conversely, aren't Chiltern trains running over LU infrastructure at Harrow on the Hill? Or, are the Chiltern lines through the station NR infrastructure, with a flat crossing by LU at the northern end?

Edited September 27, 2019 by Nearholmer

[adb968008]

13 hours ago, royaloak said:

Did anything else change around the same time?

Were yellow ended trains involved in more incidents than non yellow ended ones?

etc etc etc.

 

A statement like this doesnt really prove anything without extra information.

Sure,

 

ive just done a bit more research..

 

yellow ends were introduced in 1988, following a crash between an army transport and a flammable freight train resulting in many deaths.

in 1999 it was consulted with the UK and others with recommendations to removing yellow ends, using glow in the dark orange (hi vis). The recommendation was yellow ends as status quo.

 

Rail accidents increased and in 2002 the recommendation changed to having headlights on in daylight, this resulted in much greater effect on safety ever since and yellow ends were painted out, the last by 2012, but most by 2007.

 

Since then Poland also adopted mandatory law that headlights must be on, at all times on public roads to reduce death there also.

 

lights are better than yellow ends, the UK was at the back of the pack to learn that one.

 

UIC database records the statistics, by railway company, ever since 2001..

 

Edited September 27, 2019 by adb968008

[daveyb]

The North American lines were ahead there, with big powerful lights fitted to steam engines in the 30s (not really the enormous oil lights from the turn of the century 19 to 20).

 

But even then they were experimenting with ideas to make the lights more noticeable. Both the Gyralight and the Mars light used mechanical and geared systems to sweep the beam in a pattern by moving the reflector or lens or both. They are fascinating bits of machinery. Locos were often fitted with both a solid and a moving light. Later, smaller twin lights are more like high beam.

 

I think it was CN who introduced 'ditch lights' on the pilot beam to enhance both sight and visibility, which has been taken into standards for north America. There, too, is a variance as some railroads and conditions require the ditch light to flash alternately, which may be speed and crossing related.

 

They have tried roof mounted beacons that are like a bright version of a yellow beacon on a plant vehicle (winky pots, we used to call them) but they also fell out of favour in the early 2000s.

 

As has bean mentioned, D9000 was fitted with a flashing light in 1960 so it is not new to BR, and headlights have been fitted to new locos and stock since the 87s in 1973. Welsh and Scottish locos had fitments from the 70s too. Why retro fitting took so long is anyone's guess. Yellow paint must be cheap!!!

Edited September 28, 2019 by daveyb
Syntax

[keefer]

I'd forgotten I'd seen a pic of a cl.31 with flashing lights - according to the caption they flashed alternately and were fitted to four cl.31 and four cl.37

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p857901357/h1D420929#h1d420929

 

This wasn't the image i had in mind, I'm sure there's a pic on Flickr where the lights are on a bar attached to the handrails or lamp irons

 

EDIT: this is the pic i was thinking of, but i had in mind they were mounted higher up

https://www.flickr.com/photos/david_christie/6017142615

 

Edited September 28, 2019 by keefer

[Lovemymodelling]

I did a disability course a few years ago and part of the curriculum was vision, the lecturer told the group that if you ever loose your sight or have vision impairment one of the last clear colours you see is yellow hence it’s use on things like Pelican crossing button boxes, step edges even down to nature with many poisonous reptiles being yellow and the body of wasps and bees, 

[The Johnster]

On 27/09/2019 at 22:11, newbryford said:

 

And lots of noise...................

Hmm.  When the loco was working hard certainly, and the visual prompt of clouds of steam, but with steam shut off and coasting a steam loco has better stealth credentials than a coasting diesel, which is emitting the noise of the engine on tickover, plus possibly compressor noise as well. 

 

On 28/09/2019 at 07:17, daveyb said:

The North American lines were ahead there, with big powerful lights fitted to steam engines in the 30s (not really the enormous oil lights from the turn of the century 19 to 20).

 

But even then they were experimenting with ideas to make the lights more noticeable. Both the Gyralight and the Mars light used mechanical and geared systems to sweep the beam in a pattern by moving the reflector or lens or both. They are fascinating bits of machinery. Locos were often fitted with both a solid and a moving light. Later, smaller twin lights are more like high beam.

 

I think it was CN who introduced 'ditch lights' on the pilot beam to enhance both sight and visibility, which has been taken into standards for north America. There, too, is a variance as some railroads and conditions require the ditch light to flash alternately, which may be speed and crossing related.

 

They have tried roof mounted beacons that are like a bright version of a yellow beacon on a plant vehicle (winky pots, we used to call them) but they also fell out of favour in the early 2000s.

 

As has bean mentioned, D9000 was fitted with a flashing light in 1960 so it is not new to BR, and headlights have been fitted to new locos and stock since the 87s in 1973. Welsh and Scottish locos had fitments from the 70s too. Why retro fitting took so long is anyone's guess. Yellow paint must be cheap!!!

The original purpose of the powerful headlights of North American locos was not to improve sighting of the locos by those on the track, but to enable the driver to see obstacles in front of him on unfenced track, much like a car’s headlights on an unlit road.  This was also the purpose of the headlights fitted to the 2-car power twin Swindon Cross Country class 120 dmus used on the Central Wales line, along with  some Pantyfynnon allocated 37s.  These were retrofit Lucas car rallying headlights.

 

I was once guard on a Central Wales set which had found it's way onto a Bristol-Cardiff working and the driver turned the headlight on in the Severn Tunnel, a rather sobering experience when you could actually see how much water was coming in...

Edited October 6, 2019 by The Johnster

[adb968008]

Its a British thing not to have lights.

 

The rest of the workd were using lights as bright as possible throughout the 20th century...

 

heres 1936... with PKP and SNCF pacifics side by side..

 

New Zealand 1940..

 

Japan 1937..

http://steam.fan.coocan.jp/engines/D51.htm

 

19th century american wood burners..

 

 

The list goes on, you can talk about yellow ends as much as you like, but light is the que our eyes use to see and be seen.

 

My only assumption for not having bright lights in the UK was lack of regulation and saving money, with a mitigation for being the only country to really mass adopt fences, trespass signs and control its people instead.

 

 

 

Edited October 7, 2019 by adb968008

[The Johnster]

Powerful headlights were not considered necessary in the UK because the Acts of Parliament specified that railways be fully fenced; this was not originally to protect railways from trespass or farm animals but to prevent passengers leaving trains and invading private land.  The gentry did not want the unwashed wandering all over their estates frightening the horses...

 

In early days passengers were locked in to carriages, but the open third class ones could easily be climbed out of, and the fear of revolution was a major influence in those days; people remembered what had happened in France and that it led to Napoleon, whose worst offence seems to have been not to have been born a gentleman as far as Wellington was concerned.  A public outcry after the train fire at Versailles, which was reported here, ended this practice but the introduction of automatic sliding or plug doors has effectively re-introduced it.  

 

Fenced railways and reliance on signalling regulations (which were not always up to the job in the early days) meant that trains were considered safe to be sent into sections in the dark, the driver being effectively blind to the road ahead and relying on the signals, and as a very sweeping generalisation they were except for those working on or about the track.  It is hi-vis that made the difference here, so that drivers could see men in the four foot, and yellow ends so that the men could see approaching trains, in daylight at least.  Safety in such circumstances is much improved, but as the recent Margam tragedy has highlighted, vigilance is still necessary!

[royaloak]

7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

The list goes on, you can talk about yellow ends as much as you like, but light is the que our eyes use to see and be seen.

So my colleagues who work trackside on a daily basis and tell me they prefer the yellow ends which are visible from any angle are better than headlights which are only really effective head on are wrong then, I will have to tell them that!

 

Please tell us how much experience you have with being trackside on open lines?

Edited October 7, 2019 by royaloak

[Nearholmer]

To my mind, it’s facile to have an “either/or” debate on this topic.

 

I’ll take it we all agree that Step 1 is to strive to find ways of doing jobs when no trains can be moving, and I’m not totally sure that even now everybody thinks like that, but beyond that:

 

Yellow paint costs next to nothing to apply, and it unquestionably helps in many circumstances, so use it.

 

Headlamps unquestionably help in many circumstances, so unless those circumstances don’t apply, use them too.

 

inside a possession, life can get a lot more complicated than with normal traffic, and yellow ends and headlamps are often of no great help in spotting a moving train (there can be big yellow things and bright white lights in all directions), so assess the risks properly, devise proper controls, and then apply them properly.

 

 

Edited October 7, 2019 by Nearholmer

[melmerby]

Some trains in the US seem to drive around with bright tail lights showing where they have just been, as well as the usual red lights.

[Gwiwer]

On 27/09/2019 at 23:58, Nearholmer said:

People legitimately on track while trains are running is very limited on LU infrastructure, but can still occur (on surface sections, and then only on lines with trains under manual control, which means less and less, IIRC), but what I think GWiwer was getting at was the fact that LU trains run for considerable distances either on NR infrastructure, intermingled with yellow-fronted trains, or right alongside NR infrastructure, in some places with no barrier between the two.

 

Conversely, aren't Chiltern trains running over LU infrastructure at Harrow on the Hill? Or, are the Chiltern lines through the station NR infrastructure, with a flat crossing by LU at the northern end?

Chiltern Trains operates over NR tracks between Marylebone and Harrow South Junction thence over TfL tracks, when working via Rickmansworth, as far as Amersham Mantles Wood (over two miles north of the station but the official NR:LU boundary and limit of electrification) and alongside on NR tracks over other parts of that route.  In some places there is no physical separation between Chiltern and Metropolitan Line trains and in some places they share the same tracks.

 

LU Bakerloo Line operates over NR metals between Queens Park Depot (northern limit of the carriage shed) and Harrow & Wealdstone where the turnback is LU but is not separated from the NR running lines either side.  Bakerloo Line trains are also able to run south of Queens Park via NR metals to Kilburn High Road in emergency though not south of the platforms there.  

 

LU District Line runs parallel to the NR Shoeburyness route between Bow Junction (no longer an actual junction but between Bow Road LU / Gas Factory Junction C2C and Bromley-by-Bow) and Upminster plus beyond the station to the depot there.  Despite the complex arrangements at Barking LU, TfL Overground and C2C tracks are entirely separate there with no sharing of platforms or track.  

 

The Hammersmith & City and now the Circle Line runs alongside the NR lines between Paddington and Subway Junction (Westbourne Park) though there has been no physical connection for years.  There is again no actual physical separation.  

 

And the District Line runs over NR tracks between Acton Lane Junction (between Turnham Green and Gunnersbury) and Richmond station shared with TfL Overground, plus between Esst Putney and Wimbledon stations under the same arrangement.  In the latter case SWR trains share the route though with one timetabled and numerous emergency diversion exceptions they are only empty stock moves.  The old BR / LT boundary was actually north of the river and south of the platforms at Putney Bridge station but this has been changed over the years.  The question of who is responsible for the infrastructure now was raised when a NR train derailed on the Up Main Slow to Eastbound Putney connection just beyond Wimbledon station.  Recovery was a protracted affair in itself but track repairs were delayed for weeks while a wrangle over whose track it was was resolved.  

 

In all of those cases NR trains wear yellow ends (nowadays with high-beam and marker lights) and LU / TfL trains use high-beam headlights.  The red on LU trains exists not so much to detract from unfortunate events but as a contrasting colour to the white and dates from the time when unpainted aluminium bodies began to receive extensive graffiti.  They were painted in varying applications of red, white and blue with the half-red front becoming the final version.  Central Line 1962 stock car 1422 was the first to wear the half-red panel; at that time it was considered experimental and was applied to an otherwise unpainted aluminium-bodied unit.  One other 1962 stock car was also so painted in order to create a train with both ends matching.  

Edited October 7, 2019 by Gwiwer

[Gibbo675]

On 07/10/2019 at 17:32, Nearholmer said:

To my mind, it’s facile to have an “either/or” debate on this topic.

 

I’ll take it we all agree that Step 1 is to strive to find ways of doing jobs when no trains can be moving, and I’m not totally sure that even now everybody thinks like that, but beyond that:

 

Yellow paint costs next to nothing to apply, and it unquestionably helps in many circumstances, so use it.

 

Headlamps unquestionably help in many circumstances, so unless those circumstances don’t apply, use them too.

 

inside a possession, life can get a lot more complicated than with normal traffic, and yellow ends and headlamps are often of no great help in spotting a moving train (there can be big yellow things and bright white lights in all directions), so assess the risks properly, devise proper controls, and then apply them properly.

 

 

Hi Kevin,

 

Have you had any trouble with tail lamps of propelled trains at night ?

 

The reason I ask is that I was once on the platform at Carnforth station one dark evening when a 47 propelled four or five Freightliner flats through the up road. I could see the cab front of the 47 and I could see the tail lamp on the end of the flat wagons but I didn't actually realise that there were any flat wagons attached until the leading one went over a rail joint, it was only then that I was then able to judge the proximity of the tail lamp and also managed to make out the Freightliner flats that were obscured by the platform, they were less than twenty feet away.

 

Gibbo.

[brianusa]

Many moons ago, there was a similar discussion hereon with the same pro and con division.  Nothing was resolved then and its doubtful if this one will succeed in convincing the inconvincible.  Subsequently the trend with some companies appears to favour a corporate colour front end or perhaps reduce the size of the yellow panel.  There doesn't appear to be a substantial increase in fatalities because of this decision.

     Brian.

[D9020 Nimbus]

Modern traction has much more powerful lights than when yellow panels were introduced.

[phil-b259]

On 06/10/2019 at 13:05, Lovemymodelling said:

I did a disability course a few years ago and part of the curriculum was vision, the lecturer told the group that if you ever loose your sight or have vision impairment one of the last clear colours you see is yellow hence it’s use on things like Pelican crossing button boxes, step edges even down to nature with many poisonous reptiles being yellow and the body of wasps and bees, 

 

Which suggests that motive power working over lines which retain level crossings should retain yellow ends in some form!

 

 

[The Johnster]

On 09/10/2019 at 16:01, D9020 Nimbus said:

Modern traction has much more powerful lights than when yellow panels were introduced.

Certainly does!  Steam loco oil lamps and early diesel or electric marker lights, and illuminated headcodes were capable of illuminating about half a dozen sleepers ahead of the front buffer beam, not much at 90mph on a dark night!  Drivers relied on boundary fences, absolute block, and, on the GW and later nationally, on ATC and AWS. 

 

Nerves of steel, we ‘ad, boyo, nerves of steel...

[Wheatley]

On ‎07‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 17:04, royaloak said:

So my colleagues who work trackside on a daily basis and tell me they prefer the yellow ends which are visible from any angle are better than headlights which are only really effective head on are wrong then, I will have to tell them that!

 

Please tell us how much experience you have with being trackside on open lines?

 

What he said. (33 years on and off so far).

 

I can't believe this discussion is churning around again. Can anyone think of a way of getting OO-SF and smelly people with rucksacks into it ?

Edited October 11, 2019 by Wheatley

[Right Away]

Trying to envisage the impression of a 28xx or an A4 (or the rest for that matter) with hi-viz fronts and tender/bunker rears!

Keep the painters and cleaners busy?

 

[melmerby]

Wasn't there a suggestion that heritage traction should carry an add-on yellow panel at the front (on the lamp irons?) and that a SR multiple unit has actually appeared on the mainline in that form?