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31 minutes ago, The Great Bear said:

Some locos have a box on the cab front above the firebox looks like linked to the whistles - see picture of Kingfisher here - what is this?

 

I think it is some sort of cover for the whistle manifold. Possibly a late Collett feature, and maybe only appearing on the Birds. Collett Goods had them as did other late Collett locos.

 

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What are the 4 "horns" on the corners of the firebox

 

Mud hole covers

 

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Locos seem to have random patterns of rivets on the cab sides, these are just ad-hoc repairs?

 

I've never been able to put much logic to that area.

 

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21 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

I think it is some sort of cover for the whistle manifold. Possibly a late Collett feature, and maybe only appearing on the Birds. Collett Goods had them as did other late Collett locos.

 

 

 

 At least a few Bulldogs had them eg 3148 Sir Arthur Yorke

 

Thanks, Miss P

Edited by The Great Bear

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Quite a few, possibly as a result of boiler swops and renewals.

 

Mike WiltshireBulldogs001.jpg.5100ba3c5a0ffc48ed0f068c621e0d2f.jpg

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Interesting thread. The message I take is the Bachmann motor is too large to fit a Std 2 boiler.  I wonder if it is possible to adapt a smaller motor, Hornby MK7 or even a K's Mk 2 to fit .   My plans have changed to using a tender mounted motor and cardan shaft to the rear driving axle, a rather grandiose way to describe bodging an Airfix 14XX drive train to fit.

The trouble is I have so many other abandoned and delayed projects Bachmann are sure to have produced the Bulldog before I ever get round to making mine.

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On 06/10/2019 at 19:37, The Great Bear said:

Dimensions of the boiler I got from Jim Champ's website (hopefully interpreted them correctly!)

 

That's actually something I've struggled with. On official drawings I've looked at the boiler itself is fully dimensioned and no problem to draw accurately. The cladding on the other hand is not, and of course *we* only care about the cladding. There are presumably drawings out there that tell us how the cladding should be organised, and what allowances should be made above the boiler dimensions, but I haven't seen one. 

It has occurred to me more than once that the range of GWR standard boilers, without all the external fittings which varied from class to class or loco to loco, would be a useful thing to be available to kitbashers.  Especially if they were in a MEK compatible plastic. But without a set of guaranteed correct dimensions I haven't felt able to have a go.

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12 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

>>Locos seem to have random patterns of rivets on the cab sides, these are just ad-hoc repairs?

I've never been able to put much logic to that area.

Might one hypothesise internal cab components that the factory simply mounted as seemed convenient at the time?

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1 hour ago, JimC said:

Might one hypothesise internal cab components that the factory simply mounted as seemed convenient at the time?

 

Up to a point, yes. But one would think there would have been standard positions (and therefore their fixings) for cab seats for example. Offand I can't think of other internal cab components that were fitted to the left-hand side cab sheet. On the right-hand side, the most obvious post-1930 fitting is the ATC, and here is Mogul 5357's right-hand side.

 

5357-cab.jpg.68b689af230cf34b67d4af6bae0d7d9e.jpg

 

 

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2 hours ago, JimC said:

 

That's actually something I've struggled with. On official drawings I've looked at the boiler itself is fully dimensioned and no problem to draw accurately. The cladding on the other hand is not, and of course *we* only care about the cladding. There are presumably drawings out there that tell us how the cladding should be organised, and what allowances should be made above the boiler dimensions, but I haven't seen one. 
 

 

Ah. I'm now in a flurry double checking my dimesnions. I thought I had appreciated that the diameters tabled were exclusive of cladding but looking again, some I didn't:sad_mini2:

The cladding looks to be around 2" thick - based on a drawing in Russell which gives OD for the smokebox and front of boiler as 4'9 3/8". Whilst less than 1mm at 4mm scale that also might explain why motor was a tight fit, reduce size of cut out needed.

 

Oh, it was going so well... but am getting more practise at Fusion 360!

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The excellent GWR Modelling website suggests in A Beginners Guide to Outside Framed 4-4-0s that "during the 1920s some Bulldogs, both straight and curved frame, were fitted with the smaller and shorter Number 3 boiler" .  Having just completed a reasonable (to me) representation of a GWR 36xx which also used the Standard Number 3 boiler https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/131939-representational-modelling-early-1920s-gwr-36xx/page/2/

I'm seeing possibilities for another Dukedog to Bulldog conversion.  I used a modified Mainline 2251 boiler to represent a Standard Number 3.

Can anyone point me to information sources which might have details of Bulldogs so fitted and when please?

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33 minutes ago, brumtb said:

The excellent GWR Modelling website suggests in A Beginners Guide to Outside Framed 4-4-0s that "during the 1920s some Bulldogs, both straight and curved frame, were fitted with the smaller and shorter Number 3 boiler" .

 

Hmmm. The word 'some' might not be quite the right word here. Offhand I can think only of 3306 'Armorel' that had the No 3.

 

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I've added a pic of 3306 to the 4-4-0s page.

 

If anyone knows the location, I'll add it.

 

Edited by Miss Prism
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3 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Hmmm. The word 'some' might not be quite the right word here. Offhand I can think only of 3306 'Armorel' that had the No 3.

 

3306, 3308 (both rebuilt Dukes), 3369, 3374, 3376, 3380, 3383, 3389, 3391, 3395, 3400, 3428, 3430, 3452 (Penguin) according to RCTS.

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Many thanks Miss Prism and JimC I'll follow this up.

 

Tony

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Thanks Jim. Update done. I've got pics of quite a few of those locos, and they have reverted to a standard No 2, so maybe the No 3s were not particularly successful, or No 2s returned quickly as the No 2 pool began to fill up again. 3306 seems to be the exception, seemingly carrying a No 3 to its withdrawal (in 1939).

 

 

Edited by Miss Prism

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Its a bit odd because superheated Std 3s were being built as late as 1933, and apart from the Bulldogs the 14 3521s, gone by 1931, were the only tender class using them. There were quite a few absorbed 0-6-2Ts using Std 3s though, most notably TVR O4s. Presumably as RCTS suggests it must just have been a question of not wanting to scrap decent boilers. Its odd, looking at RCTS there was one batch during a short period in 1933, and a handful more in 1944, by which time some of the earlier ones had been scrapped. It would probably make some sense if I could be bothered to do a complete inventory of Std3 engines. Maybe in 1944 it didn't matter too much what boiler was on a Bulldog as they weren't being used that heavily anyway. 

 

As you probably know the last 36s were in service until 1934, and did overlap with the earlier Std 3 Bulldogs so you can justify both:-)

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I imagine the quantity in No 2 pool fluctuated wildly, some of the big 4-4-0s disappearing by 1931, Aberdares and County tanks gradually disappearing, a steady refurbishment of absorbed locos, and a significant demand from the new large Prairies. A proportion of the older boilers would be regarded as scrap, which adds to the complexity.
 

For No 3s on Bulldogs, the old adage of getting a dated pic is very appropriate.

 

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In looking at photos, I've a question about the boilers, the box on the drivers side of the firebox 1/3 way up, which I think is related to the reversing gear. Looking at the photos here the slight majority maybe 60% have a box, others don't. Does this indicate different type of reverser, I thought all the Bulldogs had a steam reverser or was there a mixture? (How did that work, I can understand concept of lever and screw ones as shown on the diagrams by Jim on the GWR modelling site) 

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29 minutes ago, The Great Bear said:

In looking at photos, I've a question about the boilers, the box on the drivers side of the firebox 1/3 way up, which I think is related to the reversing gear.

 

Yes

 

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Looking at the photos here the slight majority maybe 60% have a box, others don't. Does this indicate different type of reverser,

 

I don't think so. I can't explain it at the moment.

 

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I thought all the Bulldogs had a steam reverser or was there a mixture?

 

Bulldogs were built with steam reverser, Birds with screw reverse. I remember asking Martin Finney whether any of the steam reversers were changed, but I can't remember what he said now.

 

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(How did that work, I can understand concept of lever and screw ones as shown on the diagrams by Jim on the GWR modelling site) 

 

The steam reverser was a small-ish cylinder on the rhs of the frame. Jim includes a steam reverser (for an Aberdare) on the reverser page

 

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This post has been through multiple edits!

9017 has a cover there, and she has screw reverse. I have a Dukedog GA, and that shows the reach rod clearly running on that alignment. Yet I don't see the cover on all Bird photos, and I also see it on Bulldogs.  I shall look a bit further, and also see if there are different shaped covers in that area. 
The trouble is I don't have enough drawings, and the GA drawings, while they show all the bits superimposed, can be very difficult to interpret.


If I read the Atbara/City drawing I have correctly (and I am by no means confident I've worked it out) then the steam reverse on those had a couple of bell cranks in the cab and a low level rod to the steam cylinders. City of Truro now has screw reverse and a similar cover, so no help there. 

 

At the moment I suspect that a flat angled downward cover seems to be over the reach rod for screw reverse, which for inscrutable reasons disappears inside the boiler casing. Smugmugs photo of 3390 (#22) appears to me to show the cover missing and the reach rod beneath.  I have no idea yet whether no cover indicates a steam reverse, or whether there were versions of the steam reverse with a reach rod in a similar location, rather than low down as I interpret the Atbara drawing.

There's a recent book on the Bulldogs, Dukes etc, it would be useful to see what it has to say.
 

Edited by JimC
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14 hours ago, JimC said:

Its a bit odd because superheated Std 3s were being built as late as 1933, and apart from the Bulldogs the 14 3521s, gone by 1931, were the only tender class using them. There were quite a few absorbed 0-6-2Ts using Std 3s though, most notably TVR O4s. Presumably as RCTS suggests it must just have been a question of not wanting to scrap decent boilers. Its odd, looking at RCTS there was one batch during a short period in 1933, and a handful more in 1944, by which time some of the earlier ones had been scrapped. It would probably make some sense if I could be bothered to do a complete inventory of Std3 engines. Maybe in 1944 it didn't matter too much what boiler was on a Bulldog as they weren't being used that heavily anyway. 

 

As you probably know the last 36s were in service until 1934, and did overlap with the earlier Std 3 Bulldogs so you can justify both:-)

This is all very interesting, thank you!

I note from Russell that Armorel was fitted with a Standard 3 in 1933, does RCTS give any fitting dates for the other Bulldogs?  I'm hoping for an early fitting to a straight frame Bulldog!

 

Tony

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3306 6/33

3308  8/33

(both rebuilt Dukes),

 

3369 3/33 (wd 7/36)

3374 9/34 (wd 6/37)

3376 6/34->12/36

3380 2/33 (wd 3/38)

3383 7/34->9/41

3389 11/33->11/37

3391 3/44 (wd 5/48)

3395 1/44 (wd 8/48)

3400 4/44 (wd 5/49)

3428 6/34 (wd 10/36)

3430 1/44 (wd 12/48)

 

3452 12/44 (wd 4/48)

according to RCTS.

 

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This is my current interpretation of the Atbara/City steam reversing gear from the GA drawing I have.There are huge caveats to this: the drawing was reproduced in GWRJ from one of the early low quality microfilm copies of the original the NRM have, and I have previously interpreted the drawing very differently in some places. Its easy to get the sanding gear and the reversing gear confused as they are drawn over each other. I have particular doubts about the area round the outer end of the reach rod and the upper end of the cylinders and the linkages round there.
The key thing is that the reach rod appears to come out of the cab rather low - about the bottom of the boiler - and it may well be completely within the firebox casing and then is behind the splasher. When it comes to any hypothetical Bulldog arrangement - for I've seen no drawings for them - again it seems likely there would be minimal external evidence of a steam gear, should it be laid out like this gear is.

 

I have two questions - the first is whether anyone reading this has a copy of 'Great Western Small-Wheeled Double-Framed 4-4-0 Tender Locomotives' or any other book featuring the Bulldogs, and can comment on whether it has much to say about reversing gear arrangements, and the second is whether anyone reading this has a scan of a Swindon Bulldog or Duke GA drawing (weight diagrams don't help) that they would be able to share with me.

 

260-4100atbarareversing..jpg

Edited by JimC
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3 hours ago, JimC said:

I have two questions - the first is whether anyone reading this has a copy of 'Great Western Small-Wheeled Double-Framed 4-4-0 Tender Locomotives' or any other book featuring the Bulldogs, and can comment on whether it has much to say about reversing gear arrangements,

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_10/260-4100atbarareversing..jpg.441e23fcad1c531b6501424f233b92b6.jpg

I have just dug out my copy and it has very little to say about reversing gear other than that the Bird series “reverted to screw reverse” but from what they reverted (lever or steam) is unclear.

Tim T

All packed up ready to move to Felinfoel

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OK, thanks for that. 

 

Going through RCTS, starting with the Dukes, RCTS says screw reverse was fitted to (post 1912 numbers) lots 97, 101, 102,  & 105.  Of lot 113 it says that most were  very similar to those before, the exception being 3300 Bulldog. 3300 started of with steam reverse and changed to screw reverse with an extended cab to cover the gear in 1899.  A photo in Russell tells us Bulldog in this form was different to every other member of the classes with the reach rod external to the boiler.

 

Earlier Duke photos in Russell don't seem to show a reach rod cover. Photos of Duke of Cornwall in Russell vol1 show the screw reverse as being mounted hiigh in the cab and well back.

Later Duke photos on smugmug show a reach rod cover close under the handrail,  

Under the Dukedog/Earl heading RCTS states that screw reverse was fitted.  A 1940 GA drawing for the class published in GWR Journal shows this.  The reverser is located appreciably lower and further forward than in the photos of Duke of Cornwall mentioned above. We may speculate that the covers appeared when the reverser was moved.
Final mention in RCTS is under the Birds, where it states that "a return was made to screw reverse... the intervening engines having been turned out with the steam apparatus."

 

Moving on to Russell, he states, when talking about the Bulldogs that they had steam reverse, but that the Aberdares were the only class to keep it. A Col Templar illustration in Russell describes the cover as being 'certain engines only'.

 

So I think we can be fairly confident that on a Bulldog the cover means screw reverse, and also means later in the locomotive's life. When, however, seems to be a completely open question. I also note that the cover seems to vary a little in shape and size.  I suppose its possible its a job that would have been done by eye as required, rather than by strictly referring to the drawing.

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I've been making some progress with a 3d printed body. Here's where I've gotten to. The body is based on 3418 Sir Arhur Yorke, a Reading loco. As I model post war my choice of prototypes is more limited. Of the sheds with likely duties on my layout Reading and Didcot both had Bulldogs post war, but most of the Reading ones were Birds. Plus a named loco helps hide the motor cut out. So the choice narrows down.

 

p3653977310-5.jpg

 

p3653976461-5.jpg

 

p3653976833-5.jpg

 

p3653976799-5.jpg

 

The fit between the new body and the chassis is as good as I'm going to get it. Some filler will be needed in some places and how to hold the body down at the rear, the front can be screwed down like the Dukedog body.

 

The photos do how a couple of little niggles in the print, some diagnonal marks I think from marks on the FEP film on the printer resin vat. I may have one last try, once I've changed that. There is a slight bow upward in the body at the front from the saddle forward, which is something in the printign process doing this but I haven't been able to resolve. The marks on the smokebox were from supports I added to try and fix this but didn't help. Once I've changed the FEP I'll have one last go, but if that doesn't improve things this one would still do; better than my roughshod effort with the K's body anyway.

 

 

Edited by The Great Bear
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