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Interestingly, the cover (which presumably we cannot now call the reachrod cover) is not shown on most Birds, but here is 3442 'Bullfinch' (at Birmingham Snow Hill, 1937):

 

3442-milk-train-bsh-1937-small.jpg.8ba81d5deb9b8c624ef58c56e53dd4ec.jpg

 

 

4 hours ago, JimC said:

So I think we can be fairly confident that on a Bulldog the cover means screw reverse, and also means later in the locomotive's life.

 

In which case, these non-Birds were screw-fitted, and the length of this list indicates there were probably many more:

 

3306, 3308, 3323, 3326, 3328, 3332, 3338, 3342, 3353, 3357, 3365, 3367, 3369, 3379, 3374, 3376, 3377, 3382, 3385, 3396, 3407, 3410, 3428.

 

The earliest non-Bird cover I can find is pre-1927 (for 3365) and 1928 (for 3385).

 

Edited by Miss Prism

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I wasn't sure whether the cover was absent or shadowed on some Bird photos. I've just started to wonder though about an analogy to  the absence  of reach rod covers on early Dukes. If we hypothesize that the reverser was moved within the cab on the Dukes, might this also be true of the Birds? In which case might the reach rod cover indicate a later installation of screw reverse?

The other thing that occurs to me was the earlier question about cabside rivet patterns. I wonder if they correlate to different reversing gear installations, at least on that side.

 

Got to be careful though, this could be a lot of castle-in-the-air.

Edited by JimC

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Going through my photo collection I've found the majority of the later period Bulldog shots to have the cover on the firebox side. Nos. include 3327, 3331, 3340, 3372, 3378, 3383, 3399, 3406, 3437 & 3450 Peacock.

 

One of the pics of 3399 Ottawa appears to have the cover missing.

 

  

GWR 3399 Ottawa (2).JPG

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Thanks for the photo info. I did have a file at one time listing any details of photographers, dates and location for most of the photos in my collection so that the files could be saved just under a title such as GWR xxxx or LNWR xxx etc. but I seems to have misplaced it when I upgraded my computer. It does make it difficult to attribute the provenance of the bulk of my collection. 

 

The pic in your link is from a slightly different angle from the one I have but appears to be taken at the same time. The gasometer is framing the cab in the pic I posted whereas it is behind the tender in the linked photo. The other photo I have of this particular engine shows the cover in place and could be from the Gloucester and Warwickshire website. There is a coach in the background of that shot with the GWR roundel on the side.  

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This is the full photo that I cropped for m y previous post. If anyone holds the copyright to this I can remove it upon request.

GWR 3399 Ottawa.JPG

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I'm following this discussion with interest but I'm struggling to see the difference!

 

Could someone put an arrow or a circle on one of the photos showing the location of the cover / missing cover, please?

 

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Same loco, same location, same time, different pics. The photographer is C F H Oldham. I don't suppose he will mind us talking about his pics some eighty years later.

 

Note the lack of capuchon on the chimney - rare on a Bulldog.

 

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4 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Could someone put an arrow or a circle on one of the photos showing the location of the cover / missing cover, please?

 

3399-cover.jpg.015aabe2fd00f66b039ccfabd65cb5da.jpg

 

It is a bit subtle, but as Jim noted earlier, the prominence of the cover varied, with early ones being quite shallow.

 

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Here's a modern photo of the equivalent cover on 9017 at the Bluebell. 

IMGP4984.JPG

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3 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Note the lack of capuchon on the chimney - rare on a Bulldog.

 

In all the time I've had this photo I had never payed much attention to the chimney. As they say "you learn something new every day".

 

Comparing the 1927 photo with the 1938 one it appears that, when the cab was flared out, new side sheets may have been fitted. The prominent rivets on the cab side seem to have disappeared - bit hard to tell with the 1938 shot but it does appear to be smoother.  

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15 hours ago, Devo63 said:

This is the full photo that I cropped for m y previous post. If anyone holds the copyright to this I can remove it upon request.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_10/467527209_GWR3399Ottawa.JPG.46ad7339516f019c238bf2d7a8225a06.JPG

 

This photo would be 1929-1930 as the coach in the background is in the 1927 livery and a bit worn looking, so we can refine the 1925 date a bit.

 

regards,

 

Craig W

 

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Quite right, Craig. I'm now doubting it is a Pamlins Print. Dodgy memory strikes again!

 

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Flamingo, probably in the early 1930s but maybe late 1920s.

 

A quick scan from a negative I won on ebay.  It is a nice side profile so even if it is a Bird  I thought it may be of interest.

 

Regards,

 

Craig w

img441.jpg

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Am I imagining things, or did we not discuss a reach-rod axis transfer recently? Stars?

 

offest-reversing.jpg.9c2621ed9d8b24cf53ab927814021f1e.jpg

 

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21 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Am I imagining things, or did we not discuss a reach-rod axis transfer recently? Stars?

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_10/offest-reversing.jpg.9c2621ed9d8b24cf53ab927814021f1e.jpg

 

 

There was a post "somewhere" that talked about that and had a sketch of the arrangement of a steam reverse. I remember it! - page 2 is that what you were thinking of?

Edited by Craigw
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8 minutes ago, Craigw said:

 

There was a post "somewhere" that talked about that and had a sketch of the arrangement of a steam reverse. I remember it! - page 2 is that what you were thinking of?

Was it in a post by Jim C....seems to ring a bell!

 

Khris

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Regarding rivet positions on the right-hand side cab sheet, screw-reversers sat on a substantial boxlike thing attached primarily to the floor, and possibly there were few fixings to the cab side.

 

Here is a Star, with a 3'1" dimension from the loco centreline to the screw reverser axis. This was possibly a standard dimension for the 4-6-0s. (On the Great Bear pacific, with its very wide firebox, the dimension was 3'5 1/2".)

 

star-cab.jpg.cfbed3ce028c487ec8780fa0859454b5.jpg

 

Despite a pile of City of Truro and 3217 Dukedog pics on the web, I can't find one that illustrates the lateral position of the reverser in the cab, which could shed some light on the 4-4-0 situation.

 

For lever reversers, the lateral position seems to be more variable. There is a horizontal strut on the following, which is possibly a 28xx, but the reverser on the Collett pannier is close to the backhead, with seeingly no horizontal stabilisers.

 

cab-probably-28xx.jpg.609eb31b2efc4628d51f1c5b21fbb58d.jpg

 

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Very interesting thread.

Is there much information available on liveries?  Other than the photo of Pelican In ex works G W R green, I’m trying to confirm the post war liveries of others in the class, in particular Nightingale.

 

So far I haven’t managed to find any suitable period photos.

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Even when there is photographic evidence, it is sometimes very hard to tell if the loco is lined out in my experience. If you mean post WW1, up until the mid twenties they should have been in the darker green, lined out. I think once withdrawals started in the early thirties, there are more unlined post '28 green locos. 

 

After 1945, I suspect (but can't offer substantial evidence) that most engines which survived remained in pretty shabby green or even war-time black. David Maidment's loco portfolio on Small Wheeled Double Framed 4-4-0s has plenty of photo's and has been on offer from Pen & sword recently for £21. I haven't completely got to grips with the book yet.

 

Regards,

 

Alastair M

Edited by A Murphy

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8 hours ago, A Murphy said:

Even when there is photographic evidence, it is sometimes very hard to tell if the loco is lined out in my experience. If you mean post WW1, up until the mid twenties they should have been in the darker green, lined out. I think once withdrawals started in the early thirties, there are more unlined post '28 green locos. 

 

After 1945, I suspect (but can't offer substantial evidence) that most engines which survived remained in pretty shabby green or even war-time black. David Maidment's loco portfolio on Small Wheeled Double Framed 4-4-0s has plenty of photo's and has been on offer from Pen & sword recently for £21. I haven't completely got to grips with the book yet.

 

Regards,

 

Alastair M

 

Pre WW1 they were lined but the austerity livery introduced during WW1 meant that any repaints were into unlined green - for everything as far as I have been able to see and with "Great Western" on the tender (no crest). There were some locos with pre war painting in the early 1920s but unlined green was the norm until lining was reintroduced in the min 1920's

 

Regards,

 

Craig w

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