New Layout - Signalling Novice!

[sammmm]

Hi All!

 

I'm getting to the point on my new layout where I'm starting to think about signalling. However I'm a complete novice when it comes to where the relevant signals would need placing.

 

The Era is planned to be 1960s to early 70's Western Region to go with my stock I've collected so far

 

I've drawn a quick diagram up of the track plan along side the any rail track plan (yellow shaded is off scene), rather simple just a double track mainline with engineering siding, h/shunt and a bi-directional freight line.

 

Could any of you wonderful people shed some light on signalling for this?

 

 

Thanks 

Sam

Edited September 24, 2019 by sammmm

[The Stationmaster]

What period and which part of the country are you modelling?   The answers to those two things could affect the answers to your question.

[sammmm]

35 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

What period and which part of the country are you modelling?   The answers to those two things could affect the answers to your question.

Ahh yes that is a rather useful bit of info I've missed off that ill now add in!

 

Broad era from early 60's to early 70's on the Western Region

Edited September 24, 2019 by sammmm

[The Stationmaster]

Right - now do you want semaphore or colour light signals?  Depending on where it was it would probably have been more likely to be semaphore in that period but signalling modernisation was in full swing by then on the main line routes from Paddington  to Cardiff and Bristol.

 

I would slightly alter the track layout if you can as the double slip as a facing point on a through line would not only be unusual but with rationalisation in full swing by then it would be even more unusual and would have been replaced by a trailing crossover and a simple facing point to the bi-directional line.  The facing crossover into a siding at the the end of platform 1 is perfectly ok for that era - such things were definitely happening on the WR in that period.

[sammmm]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Right - now do you want semaphore or colour light signals?  Depending on where it was it would probably have been more likely to be semaphore in that period but signalling modernisation was in full swing by then on the main line routes from Paddington  to Cardiff and Bristol.

 

I would slightly alter the track layout if you can as the double slip as a facing point on a through line would not only be unusual but with rationalisation in full swing by then it would be even more unusual and would have been replaced by a trailing crossover and a simple facing point to the bi-directional line.  The facing crossover into a siding at the the end of platform 1 is perfectly ok for that era - such things were definitely happening on the WR in that period.

Thanks for the Reply again, I’m torn between signal types to be honest, I’m keen on having semaphore however colour light would maybe be more in keeping if I end acquiring stock going further into the 70s.

 

I think my drawing is a bit mis leading the double slip you mentioned is actually planned to be a single slip to reduce the space taken up by a trailing crossover and facing point.

 

Excuse the poor edit done on my phone! I believe it should’ve been represented like such? 

 

Edited September 24, 2019 by sammmm

[St. Simon]

11 minutes ago, sammmm said:

Thanks for the Reply again, I’m torn between signal types to be honest, I’m keen on having semaphore however colour light would maybe be more in keeping if I end acquiring stock going further into the 70s.

 

Hi,

 

Semaphore Signalling is still quite prevalent on the railways today, so it would look out of place on a 1970's layout, in fact it makes an interesting mix, BR Blue and Semaphores.

 

The only thing is that colour lights are far easier to make working.

 

Simon

[sammmm]

14 hours ago, St. Simon said:

 

Hi,

 

Semaphore Signalling is still quite prevalent on the railways today, so it would look out of place on a 1970's layout, in fact it makes an interesting mix, BR Blue and Semaphores.

 

The only thing is that colour lights are far easier to make working.

 

Simon

 

Think your right there Simon semaphores would certainly look the part.

 

Im planning to have as many as I can working minus any ground signals as I’m modelling in N gauge 

[The Stationmaster]

Ah, back to your slip - using a single slip that way round is unusual and is only likely to happen in the real world where there are major site constraints.  But - as they say - it is your railway.

 

I'll try to knock out a sketch using semaphores to WR standards for the early 1960s with an option built in for using older style in some places (as per the Dapol ones with 'wooden' posts although they do have some dimensional errors although I think the new splitting signals are likely to be correct).  Basically it is a very simple layout to signal because (that single slip apart) the track layout is prototypical and it is therefore easier to signal accurately than a non-prototypical track layout.

[sammmm]

12 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Ah, back to your slip - using a single slip that way round is unusual and is only likely to happen in the real world where there are major site constraints.  But - as they say - it is your railway.

 

I'll try to knock out a sketch using semaphores to WR standards for the early 1960s with an option built in for using older style in some places (as per the Dapol ones with 'wooden' posts although they do have some dimensional errors although I think the new splitting signals are likely to be correct).  Basically it is a very simple layout to signal because (that single slip apart) the track layout is prototypical and it is therefore easier to signal accurately than a non-prototypical track layout.

Thank you, that would be much appreciated! 

[The Stationmaster]

Right I'll first post the plan to make sure it's legible then if it is I'll add the notes.

 

 

Right I am assuming the areas you coloured in yellow will be 'hidden' from normal view to I've not included any signals there - waste of money if they're off scene,   For the sake of my convenience I will call the line covered by Signals A & B the Up Line and that covered by Signa C the Down Line,  the third line covered by Signal D will be the Goods Line.   The first thing to think about is that you can get the correct signalling onto a 'good' track layout fairly easily and there is no need for a forest of signals so in your case there won't be many of them.   The signal box can go more or less where you want it but it must be near to or in between the main concentration of points - so it could very easily go by your siding near ground signal F.

 

Signalling is set for WR 1960s on a track layout which has seen a bit of rationalisation hence you have a facing connection into the Up Siding and it probably used to be goods loop line that has been shortened and reduced to a siding.  When that took place Signal A, a simple straight post stop signal, replaced a signal which would have looked like Signal C and the new signal has a ground disc next to it to read into the siding.  We'll call this signal the Up Inner Home Signal.

 

Signal B is the Up Starting Signal and on your layout should be as close as possible to the spot where the off-scene area starts - so just before whatever you are using as a scenic block.  You could omit it if you want but if your line goes off scene into a tunnel it should really be there just before the tunnel mouth.

 

Signal C is either the Down Home Signal or might be the Down Inner Home Signal.  If you were working to scale (which virtually none of us can in this case) there might be a second stop signal in rear of it - i.e. a train will come to the other stop signal before this one - just over 17ft away!!.  If you really want to include such a signal it would look just like Signal B and would be somewhere near the tunnel mouth or whatever view block you are using.

 

For now we'll call Signal C the Down Home Signal and as you can see it is what is called a splitting signal  - in other words it has separate arms, each on their own doll (the short post above the bracket platform) with one arm/doll for each of the two routes in advance of the signal.  Arm C1 reading to the Down Main Line is higher because the Main Line is the principal route in advance of the signal and it is also a 4 foot (in the real world) long arm because it is reading along a passenger line.  Arm C2, mounted lower as it reads to a lesser route, has a 3 foot long (in the real world) arm because it is reading to a goods line.

 

Similarly Signal D has a 3 ft arm because it applies to a goods line  (despite the fact that it reads to a passenger line.

 

Ground disc noted as E all have red stripes on their round white faces.  The one lettered F with an ad jacent letter Y has a yellow stripe on either a white or black background - it would only be cleared for a movement out onto the Down Main Line (as there is no signalling at the other end of theh station it could also read to the Up Main Line with a limit of Shunt board off scene to the right).  This signal does not have to be cleared for a movement towards the dead end by the platform.

 

Hope that all helps but don't be afraid to ask questions even if you'rre a bit worried about asking something you might think is stupid.  We can often learn by asking about things we don't understand so ask away if you have any thoughts or worries.

Edited September 26, 2019 by The Stationmaster

[The Stationmaster]

This is more or less what signals A and B will look like although in your period of modelling the posts, finial top, and part of the ladder, were painted with aluminium paint instead of white

 

 

And this gives you an idea of how a ground disc might be located next to Signal A (there are other ways of doing it, this is the simplest to model) 

 

You'll find some more of my signal photos here showing WR straight post stop signals and a bracket in the 1970s but note the bracket has two x 4ft arms plus an elevated disc reading to a siding so looks quite a bit different from your signal C.

 

 

 

[sammmm]

 

8 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Right I'll first post the plan to make sure it's legible then if it is I'll add the notes.

 

 

Right I am assuming the areas you coloured in yellow will be 'hidden' from normal view to I've not included any signals there - waste of money if they're off scene,   For the sake of my convenience I will call the line covered by Signals A & B the Up Line and that covered by Signa C the Down Line,  the third line covered by Signal D will be the Goods Line.   The first thing to think about is that you can get the correct signalling onto a 'good' track layout fairly easily and there is no need for a forest of signals so in your case there won't be many of them.   The signal box can go more or less where you want it but it must be near to or in between the main concentration of points - so it could very easily go by your siding near ground signal F.

 

Signalling is set for WR 1960s on a track layout which has seen a bit of rationalisation hence you have a facing connection into the Up Siding and it probably used to be goods loop line that has been shortened and reduced to a siding.  When that took place Signal A, a simple straight post stop signal, replaced a signal which would have looked like Signal C and the new signal has a ground disc next to it to read into the siding.  We'll call this signal the Up Inner Home Signal.

 

Signal B is the Up Starting Signal and on your layout should be as close as possible to the spot where the off-scene area starts - so just before whatever you are using as a scenic block.  You could omit it if you want but if your line goes off scene into a tunnel it should really be there just before the tunnel mouth.

 

Signal C is either the Down Home Signal or might be the Down Inner Home Signal.  If you were working to scale (which virtually none of us can in this case) there might be a second stop signal in rear of it - i.e. a train will come to the other stop signal before this one - just over 17ft away!!.  If you really want to include such a signal it would look just like Signal B and would be somewhere near the tunnel mouth or whatever view block you are using.

 

For now we'll call Signal C the Down Home Signal and as you can see it is what is called a splitting signal  - in other words it has separate arms, each on their own doll (the short post above the bracket platform) with one arm/doll for each of the two routes in advance of the signal.  Arm C1 reading to the Down Main Line is higher because the Main Line is the principal route in advance of the signal and it is also a 4 foot (in the real world) long arm because it is reading along a passenger line.  Arm C2, mounted lower as it reads to a lesser route, has a 3 foot long (in the real world) arm because it is reading to a goods line.

 

Similarly Signal D has a 3 ft arm because it applies to a goods line  (despite the fact that it reads to a passenger line.

 

Ground disc noted as E all have red stripes on their round white faces.  The one lettered F with an ad jacent letter Y has a yellow stripe on either a white or black background - it would only be cleared for a movement out onto the Down Main Line (as there is no signalling at the other end of theh station it could also read to the Up Main Line with a limit of Shunt board off scene to the right).  This signal does not have to be cleared for a movement towards the dead end by the platform.

 

Hope that all helps but don't be afraid to ask questions even if you'rre a bit worried about asking something you might think is stupid.  We can often learn by asking about things we don't understand so ask away if you have any thoughts or worries.

Mike,

 

Can't thank you enough for such a detailed description there! All the placements make sense the way you've written it out.

 

I've taken the sketch and quickly put it into MS Publisher to come up with the below. 

 

Two questions I have from it if you dont mind.

 

Signal Box placement, would it be sensible to place it where I have on the diagram (end or P1)?

 

With regards to numbering of the signals to their respective levers is there any particular numbering that would be used?

 

I'm hoping to have some form of electronic interlocking to prevent any untoward movements and also to make it more interesting to operate even if the ground signals them selveswill not be working on the layout.

 

Edited September 26, 2019 by sammmm

[The Stationmaster]

Signal box would be reasonable there but more likely  further to the left alongside the siding - far more typical of the Western.

 

With the signal box that way round and the lever frame at the front the Down Main signals would be numbered starting from the left hand end with the Distant Signal as No.1 while the Up Main signals would be at the other end with the Distant Signal as the highest numbered lever in the lever frame.  So the signal I numbered C1 would be No.2 (or No.3 if it was the Inner Home) and the Down Main Starting Signal (off scene to the right) would be the next higher number.

 

At a quick count the Up Main Starting Signal would be No.17, the Up Goods to Up Main Starting Signal would be No.18, the Up Main Inner Home (assuming you've moved the signal box to where I've suggested**) would be No.19, the off-scene Up Main Home Signal would be No.20 and the Up Main Distant would be No.21

 

** The position of stop signals in relation to the position of the signal box affects how they are named.

 

Oh and you need a yellow arm disc reading out of the siding so a yellow band instead of a red one.