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brian777999

A few questions about early BR era.

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On 25/09/2019 at 12:55, Steamport Southport said:

I think the BR brake van appeared about 1949. They were still building Big Four types up until this time.

 

Previously to this the LNER version was virtually the same with minor differences. The most noticeable one is a lack of handrail on the end platform and different style handrails leading up to the cabin. BR having full length handrails whilst the LNER version had hand loops at the bottom. The LNER also had shorter footboards with the BR version having full length ones.

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

As mentioned a transitional design that remained in production through the nationalisation period. However, if the long footboard is taken as the initial BR standard brake van, then diag 1/504 of 1950. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brbrakevan504

 

Paul

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LNER 20ton vans (I rode in a few in the 70s) had a different type of stove as well, not that this is going to be of any interest to most 4mm or less scale modellers.  Both were, AFIAK, commercially available items bought in by the railways, but were stamped with 'BR' or 'LNER' in the lozenge device.  The BR standard stove seems to have come from the LMS van, a round tapered stove with a recess in the top for your tea can and a drop down door.  The LNER stove was bigger, square, and had a hinged door along with a removable lid.  Both, and indeed all brake van stoves, tended to develop a wrinkle where the metal had softened with the heat and settled a little.  You could get them, if not white, then at least very bright orange hot.

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4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

You could get them, if not white, then at least very bright orange hot.

We had a couple of signalmen do that. Burned the boxes down. 

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You could burn a van out if you weren't careful but the stoves were mounted on bases which acted as the coal bunkers and these were pretty efficient at protecting the floor.  I did set a van on fire once, but that was from enthusiastic use and the resultant heating of the brakes in hot and dry weather.

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Brake van stove pipes had to be modified with retraining straps after about 1960. With the expansion of the 25kv ohle there was a danger the guard would lift the stove pipe to clear it and zapp!

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There was also a large plastic warning notice on the van wall behind the stove warning of the perils of raising the stove pipe under the wires.  All the stove pipes I recall were solidly jammed in position an couldn't have been raised anyway.

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On 25/09/2019 at 07:05, Kris said:

Flashing lights are a relatively recent development. At the time you are talking about the lights would have been oil lamps giving a constant (limited) light. 

 

But flickering.......

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On 25/09/2019 at 14:59, The Johnster said:

At midnight on 31st December 1947 British Railways came into existence and every loco in steam blew it's whistle to mark the occasion.  Then, nothing much happened for a while.  Locos and coaches coming out of main works paint shops continued to be painted in whatever livery they had been previously, but company initials or crests were not to be painted on and the change of ownership was to be recorded.  On the WR this meant that 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' appeared on tank and tender sides in GW 1920s style 'Egyptian Serif' lettering and the previous liveries were continued, i.e lined or unlined green, and likewise Apple on the ex LNER  and Malachite on the Southern continued to be used, but by the late 40s most locos were being painted black anyway.

 

This situation lasted until May 31st 1948.  By that time the new standard liveries had been chosen and were introduced on that date, along with 'BRITISH RAILWAYS' in the now standard Gill Sans lettering.  The new coach liveries, crimson/cream for gangwayed or crimson for non-gangwayed and NPCCS, and freight bauxite or grey (7 plank minerals and 5 plank opens were unpainted; there were still austerity regulations and rationing in place and many materials were in short supply including paint), also began appearing.  

 

This remained the case for a year, until May 1949, when the 'unicycling lion' emblem was introduced on locos.  Next big livery change was 1956, when the regions were given some autonomy; the Southern painted coaches in Malachite Green and the WR used a chocolate/cream similar to GW livery for some named expresses.  The LMR began painting some Stanier pacifics in Crimson Lake, and the WR extended lined passenger green livery to some mixed traffic and tank engines.  The practice of not painting unfitted wooden bodied open wagons ceased as paint shortages resolved during the early 50s.

 

In 1958, the second crest, the 'ferret and dartboard'  was introduced, and that was the last livery change until the introduction of Corporate Scheme blue in 1966.

...................................................

 

An excellent comprehesive summary but I suggest one correction:

The second BR crest was introduced in mid-1956 not 1958.

Ian

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2 hours ago, OFFTHE RAILS said:

 

An excellent comprehesive summary but I suggest one correction:

The second BR crest was introduced in mid-1956 not 1958.

Ian

Horwich were still turning out new 76xxx with the 'old crest' until mid 1957 suggesting the change was not overnight and they may, simply, have been using up old stocks of transfers. I wonder if this also occurred at other works?

Ray.

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I understand the crest was 'announced' in August 1956, but the new transfers would not have started to appear and be applied until sometime later, old stocks being used up, so I agree 1957 is a more realistic initial application date.

 

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Yes, 1956 not 58, my bad.  This coincided with greater autonomy for the regions in the matter of coach liveries, and the Southern promptly reverted to Malachite Green for all loco hauled stock, which AFAIK it retained until 1966.  The WR introduced a chocolate and cream livery similar to GW livery for named trains, and continued with this until 1962; the last set built was for the Bristolian and was the first to feature the new B4 bogie.

 

Non gangwayed and NPCC stock was turned out in plain crimson from June 1948 to 1956.  The WR painted auto trailers in the main line crimson/cream livery from June '48 until, apparently, Mr Riddles saw one at Paddington one day in 1950 and demanded to know why the region was painting lowly auto trailers in his best main line colours. The plain crimson livery was discontinued at the same time as the main line crimson/cream in 1956 and replaced with maroon, lined for gangwayed and unlined for non-gangwayed and NPCC stock, which were lined from 1958 on.  Apart from the Southern and WR exceptions noted, this remained the case until 1966 (XP64 set being the exception).

 

The livery changes mean that the mk1 Buffet Cars, which were not introduced until 1960 IIRC, never carried crimson/cream livery despite what you might see on some heritage railways...

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Tri-ang were well ahead of the game with their R628 Crimson & Cream Mk.1 buffet, bringing it out in 1963, probably about 20 years before they were seen on preservation lines. In the early '70s I used to runa Tri-ang 9" R331 Restaurant cars in my train of WR Mk.1s (my own repaints using Humbrol Authentic colours) behind my BR Albert Hall on the basis that it was a former GWR 57' Collett Composite Restaurant in refurbished condition (Guess who got Michael Harris's GWR coaches as a Christmas present).

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On 09/11/2019 at 02:27, The Johnster said:

Yes, 1956 not 58, my bad.  This coincided with greater autonomy for the regions in the matter of coach liveries, and the Southern promptly reverted to Malachite Green for all loco hauled stock, which AFAIK it retained until 1966.  The WR introduced a chocolate and cream livery similar to GW livery for named trains, and continued with this until 1962; the last set built was for the Bristolian and was the first to feature the new B4 bogie.

 

Non gangwayed and NPCC stock was turned out in plain crimson from June 1948 to 1956.  The WR painted auto trailers in the main line crimson/cream livery from June '48 until, apparently, Mr Riddles saw one at Paddington one day in 1950 and demanded to know why the region was painting lowly auto trailers in his best main line colours. The plain crimson livery was discontinued at the same time as the main line crimson/cream in 1956 and replaced with maroon, lined for gangwayed and unlined for non-gangwayed and NPCC stock, which were lined from 1958 on.  Apart from the Southern and WR exceptions noted, this remained the case until 1966 (XP64 set being the exception).

 

The livery changes mean that the mk1 Buffet Cars, which were not introduced until 1960 IIRC, never carried crimson/cream livery despite what you might see on some heritage railways...

The Eastern Region - naturally - considered ( pseudo ) varnished teak livery when the rules were relaxed ........ another livery that's appeared in preservation http://www.cs.rhrp.org.uk/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=1218

 

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33 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

This coincided with greater autonomy for the regions in the matter of coach liveries, and the Southern promptly reverted to Malachite Green for all loco hauled stock, which AFAIK it retained until 1966.

I thought the green that Southern Region went for was a darker shade than the Southern Railway's malachite green , which was a distinctly brighter shade (and one that didn't, by all accounts, weather well). BR(S) also, uniquely, applied its green to NPCS as well as its coaching stock.

 

Jim

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It would have looked good on wooden coaches like the Gresleys and surviving pre-pregrouping stock, but the Thompsons and mk1s would have had to have been done in 'scumble', which is at best a teak effect.  Thompsons were painted in this livery in LNER days.  It would have been interesting to see it applied to Staniers, which were allocated in some numbers to the North Eastern Region's carriage depots at York and Leeds Nevillie Hill.

 

The WR painting of auto trailers in crimson/cream was not so much a deliberate piece of Swindon defiance, which is probably what Riddles considered it to be, but a continuation of GW practice as auto trailers had always been turned out in the best main line liveries, at least until the WW2 austerity period when some matchboarded trailers were painted in plain brown.  

 

Hornby released a train set some years ago with a B12 and the GW shorty clerestories in BR crimson/cream livery, so presumably there was a prototype for this, as I'm sure Hornby would never release anything in a fictional livery...

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18 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

I thought the green that Southern Region went for was a darker shade than the Southern Railway's malachite green , which was a distinctly brighter shade (and one that didn't, by all accounts, weather well). BR(S) also, uniquely, applied its green to NPCS as well as its coaching stock.

 

Jim

It was described as Malachite Green, and there seem to have been two different shades, the lighter one of which was probably very similar to original Bulleid malachite, but seemed 'flatter', if that makes sense.  Some very early mk2a FKs with the older, 4 window, ventilators were delivered to the Southern in 1965 in this livery.  The WR applied it's version of choc/cream to some BGs for use with the named train sets, and these tended to get 'borrowed' by the Southern for the Western Section's Pullmans.

 

A visit to Eastleigh in the summer of 1967 when the highlight of the afternoon was supposed to be the passage of the Bournemouth Belle behind a clean MN was a disappointment as the train turned up behind an Old Oak 47, and had a lined maroon BG.  All was forgiven half an hour later as an MN too filthy to identify thundered through on the down with 14 on at what looked to me like the high 90s, whistle screaming.  This train was a mixture of mk1s and Bullieds, some of the mk1s in blue/grey.

 

Greens during the 1956-66 period could get confusing, as apart from the SR liveries and 'electric green', which I believe originated on the LNER for it's emus, eventually built after nationalisation, there were at least 3 green liveries applied to dmus, in varying combinations of lined and unlined.  

Edited by The Johnster

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4 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

It was described as Malachite Green, and there seem to have been two different shades, the lighter one of which was probably very similar to original Bulleid malachite, but seemed 'flatter', if that makes sense.

That would explain things.

 

Jim

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1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

I thought the green that Southern Region went for was a darker shade than the Southern Railway's malachite green , which was a distinctly brighter shade (and one that didn't, by all accounts, weather well). BR(S) also, uniquely, applied its green to NPCS as well as its coaching stock.

 

Jim

Southern Malachite DID weather well - which is why many coaches were still carrying that colour when the initial BR red liveries were abandoned and Green No.11 was adopted by BR(S).

The Southern wasn't quite alone in applying regional colours to their NPCS as a number of BGs received Chocolate and Cream on the Western ........ and the Southern nicked one or two to run with the Bournemouth Belle Pullmans.

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