LMR region BR Mk1 Suburban coaches 1950s workings

[seeseerider]

Hello all,

 

I am trying to find examples of some typical workings for the BR Mk1 suburban stock of the LMR region in the mid to late 1950s - specifically for the non-Metrogauge stock - i.e. the regular C1 stock.

 

I am preparing an O gauge crimson set with M numbers, and I'd like to know more about how and where they were used. I can find plenty of info about the Metrogauge LMR region stock, but haven't had any luck about all the regular stock.

 

Also, does anyone have info about how/if route/destination info was displayed on this stock? I've seen examples of the ER Kings Cross suburban sets having 'Kings Cross Suburban' in white text on some coach ends, for example.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thank you.

[Steamport Southport]

They were mixed in with the LMS stock. So they would do the same duties as the LMS carriages. You could get LMS, BR and pre grouping carriages in the same train as long as it was the correct type. The Western Region did the same with theirs.

 

Unlike the Eastern and Southern Regions they weren't kept in sets.

 

Typical sets would be.

 

 BT/T (with van inboard)                BT/C/BT                          BT/C/T/BT                      BT/T/F/T/BT           BT/C/BT/BT/T/BT                        BT/T/F/T/T/BT 

 

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green]

Calling these 'suburban' is rather misleading .... many of them worked nowhere near any suburbs.

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

Calling these 'suburban' is rather misleading .... many of them worked nowhere near any suburbs.

 

That's what BR called them and what they were built for. Any that ended up in the sticks was by migration rather than design. The vast majority worked out of London and the major cities replacing older pre grouping designs.

 

Still used out of Kings Cross well into the 1970s. That's why so many of them survive.

 

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green]

The Southern's allocation spent most of their time in east Devon : St.James' Park and Polsoe Bridge Halt were probably their only calling points in the suburbs of Exeter.

 

Incidentally, I can't find the word "suburban" in the pages of http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/CoachingStockDiagramBookIssue.pdf

[Steamport Southport]

34 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

The Southern's allocation spent most of their time in east Devon : St.James' Park and Polsoe Bridge Halt were probably their only calling points in the suburbs of Exeter.

 

Incidentally, I can't find the word "suburban" in the pages of http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/CoachingStockDiagramBookIssue.pdf

 

Yes. But the Southern only had a handful of them rather than the hundreds built for use elsewhere. They used EMUs in London.

 

The Kings Cross ones actually had "KINGS CROSS SUBURBAN" or "KINGS CROSS INNER SUB" painted on the ends.

 

As an aside what does 3SUB and 4SUB mean? Suburban was definitely a term used and probably more by the SR and ER than anyone else.

 

Some photos and details of the restored set on the NNR. It's more the end lettering I'm pointing out.

 

https://www.mandgn.org/page.php?pid=20

 

 

Jason

Edited September 26, 2019 by Steamport Southport

[seeseerider]

Thank you for all your replies, very helpful.

 

I think I have what I need to proceed. I just wish we had more surviving detail photos of the stock from back then, rather than of the few modern day restored coaches - which all seem to be a little differently done.

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Yes. But the Southern only had a handful of them rather than the hundreds built for use elsewhere. They used EMUs in London.

 

The Kings Cross ones actually had "KINGS CROSS SUBURBAN" or "KINGS CROSS INNER SUB" painted on the ends.

 

As an aside what does 3SUB and 4SUB mean? Suburban was definitely a term used and probably more by the SR and ER than anyone else.

 

Some photos and details of the restored set on the NNR. It's more the end lettering I'm pointing out.

 

https://www.mandgn.org/page.php?pid=20

 

 

Jason

Hi Jason

 

Most railways had suburban services to and from the large cities they served but not all non-gangway coaches were used on suburban services.

 

Two old GNR non-gangway coaches behind a C12 on the Mablethorpe loop meandering through Saltfleetby could not even at its busiest be called suburban. 

[KeithHC]

One BR(S) even ended up being used on the Hayling Island line.

 

Keith

[johnofwessex]

1 hour ago, KeithHC said:

One BR(S) even ended up being used on the Hayling Island line.

 

Keith

 

The fibreglass body one, now in service on the East Somerset Railway on most days I have visited

[zarniwhoop]

9 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

As an aside what does 3SUB and 4SUB mean?

EMU designations. More often with a hyphen, so 4-SUB. The number is the number of carriages in the unit, the SUB is for suburban (compared to e.g. PUL for express sets which included a pullman, BIL for bi-lavatory, NOL for no-lavatory, or 4-LAV for sets where one coach had lavatories, and many others). A bit O/T for this thread, but check the SeMG website for examples.

Edited September 26, 2019 by zarniwhoop
grammar, s/as in 4-LAV/or 4-LAV/

[jim.snowdon]

14 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Jason

 

Most railways had suburban services to and from the large cities they served but not all non-gangway coaches were used on suburban services.

 

Two old GNR non-gangway coaches behind a C12 on the Mablethorpe loop meandering through Saltfleetby could not even at its busiest be called suburban. 

I think it's true to say that whilst many railways had suburban services , the concept of suburban stock is more of a modellers' term. The railways had lots of non-gangwayed compartment stock that was built/used to cover all manner of stopping services, with gangwayed stock used for the longer main line services, where the provision of a through corridor was essential to marketing such facilities as buffet and restaurant cars.

 

Jim 

[Wickham Green]

18 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

....... what does 3SUB and 4SUB mean? ..........

 

 

The 4SUB ( or 4-SUB ) units were true suburban units and rarely strayed far beyond the London Suburbs ..... similarly SOME of the B.R. non-gangwayed stock was used on London Suburban services and branded as such ( maybe other major cities too ) but this was far from universal.

 

( Incidentally, contrary to popular belief, there never was an official 3SUB / 3-SUB designation.)

[Wickham Green]

2 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

..... gangwayed stock used for the longer main line services, where the provision of a through corridor was essential to marketing such facilities as buffet and restaurant cars.

 

.......... and access to other essential facilities - though many non-gangwayed vehicles had internal corridors for this purpose.