British Rail - pay trains when did they start

[muddys-blues]

Can anybody please confirm what year the British Rail pay trains started ? would it be around the late 60's to early 70's once the decimation of station staff and facilities where cut ? or even earlier ?

 

Thanks in advance

Craig.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Mike.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Enterprisingwestern
T'other side of leaflet added.

[Johann Marsbar]

From memory, the Ipswich to Felixstowe branch Paytrain conversion was "at the beginning of 1967", though whether that was from 1st January, I'm not sure.   Certainly in the early days, the Setright tickets issued on the trains printed "IPSWICH-FELIXSTOWE BRANCH" at the top, as I've still got a couple so worded in my collection.

 

EDIT: The East Suffolk line went over to Paytrain operation from 7th March 1967, so the Felixstowe line changeover date could have been the same.

Edited September 27, 2019 by Johann Marsbar
Updated info.

[Mark Saunders]

I have often wondered if other lines would have survived if Pay Trains had been introduced earlier?

 

Mark Saunders

[dibber25]

It's probably a case of 'when did BR start calling them Pay Trains' rather than when did the idea of 'pay on board' start? For instance, buying your ticket on the train was the norm on the Chalford-Gloucester auto trains. My ticket is of the old-fashioned 'bus' type - one of those coloured card tickets that were held in a wooden tray by a spring-clip. On the Tetbury and Cirencester branch diesel rail buses, the guard sold tickets using a Setright machine. Neither of these were called Paytrains at the time and both were closed before the Pay Train term came into use. In both instances several unstaffed halts were involved. (CJL)

[Armchair Modeller]

Wasn't the term/branding 'Pay Train' very much an ER thing? 

[russ p]

Are we supposed to be impressed with the booking office and CLOSED across it?

What is impressive is the bottom picture of a met cam 79xxx with the token pad details behind the cab door,  take it that must be liverpool street? 

[Clive Mortimore]

16 minutes ago, russ p said:

Are we supposed to be impressed with the booking office and CLOSED across it?

What is impressive is the bottom picture of a met cam 79xxx with the token pad details behind the cab door,  take it that must be liverpool street? 

Hi Russ

 

The photo is at Kings Cross, platform 2.

 

 

[russ p]

Didn't realise 79xxxs got to kx

[russ p]

Didn't realise 79xxxs got to kx, difficult to se from the interior metcamm picture but that may be a 79xxx too, cant see the normal air and axle lights up the pillar 

[45125]

12 hours ago, russ p said:

Didn't realise 79xxxs got to kx, difficult to se from the interior metcamm picture but that may be a 79xxx too, cant see the normal air and axle lights up the pillar 

Looks like a 79XXX from the seats with the grab handles.

 

[Clive Mortimore]

13 hours ago, russ p said:

Didn't realise 79xxxs got to kx

Hi Russ

 

As a rule they never. I doubt it is a service train, possibly only there for the publicity shots. Going by the date they were in the process of being withdrawn, was it  a spare they borrowed from Stratford because very few were painted blue, but one or two blue ones were being used by Stratford on the Essex branch lines, and the North Woolwich line.

 

Have you also noticed in the photos the lady must have thrown the kid on the floor because the one where she is giving the guard a half-crown the kid ain't there.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Could the 79xxx be a bit of cut and paste on the photo, the historic version of photoshop?

 

Mike.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I think the LMS experimented with pay on the train. It's why some push-pull sets were built from former mainline stock rather than non-corridor stock.

 

As to British Rail, local to me on the Redhill-Reading service, they went over to conductor guards circa 1970 with corridor connections being added to the Tadpoles. I think that even before the corridor connections were fitted, passengers from some stations paid on the train. The coach without corridor connection (ex 2HAP/2EPB) was locked out of use so that these passengers could only travel in the former Hastings unit coaches.

[Clive Mortimore]

38 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Could the 79xxx be a bit of cut and paste on the photo, the historic version of photoshop?

 

Mike.

Hi Mike

 

It could be, I cannot make out the 47 through the windows of the Met-Cam. The background looks different.

[IWCR]

The  Southern  Railway  certainly  ran  some  minor  lines with Push-Pull stock and the guard selling tickets.

I suspect others did to. (GW railmotors etc?)

 

Pete

[Edwin_m]

The leaflet mentions re-booking at the main station if continuing a journey by intercity.  But normally a local ticket plus a separate intercity ticket would cost more than a through ticket.  Was there some means of refunding the difference on production of the Paytrain ticket at the main booking office, or did the unfortunate passenger just have to stump up the extra if not booking in advance (which in those days might have required an extra trip on the Paytrain to visit the main office or somewhere with a rail-accredited travel agent)?  And would the return journey of such a ticket include the Paytrain leg, as tickets from staffed stations elsewhere to Paytrain destinations presumably would in both directions?  

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

 

My money is on cut and paste.

The bug unit buffers are too high above platform level.

From the angle of the photo of the Brush 4, the closest buffer should be behind the furthest, as on the loco.

 

Mike.

[jonny777]

I agree Mike. It just doesn't look quite right for the perspective. 

 

 And back to the original subject, Oct 7th 1968 was the date for the Grantham/Lincoln/Skegness services. 

 

Note the interesting livery on the class 114. Few people believe me, but living by the line at the time I did see this unit, and thought how attractive it looked. I can't tell you which one it was, but it made a few appearances for a couple of weeks and then no more, and the rest of the class carried on appearing in all blue, with just a few blue/green hybrids to relieve the monotony for a year or two. 

 

 

[andyman7]

On 29/09/2019 at 20:35, Armchair Modeller said:

Wasn't the term/branding 'Pay Train' very much an ER thing? 

The St Albans Abbey branch was branded as a paytrain when I was little so not just ER.

[russ p]

11 hours ago, jonny777 said:

I agree Mike. It just doesn't look quite right for the perspective. 

 

 And back to the original subject, Oct 7th 1968 was the date for the Grantham/Lincoln/Skegness services. 

 

Note the interesting livery on the class 114. Few people believe me, but living by the line at the time I did see this unit, and thought how attractive it looked. I can't tell you which one it was, but it made a few appearances for a couple of weeks and then no more, and the rest of the class carried on appearing in all blue, with just a few blue/green hybrids to relieve the monotony for a year or two. 

 

 

 

 

So there was a blue and grey 114 back then?

 

 

[08221]

9 hours ago, andyman7 said:

The St Albans Abbey branch was branded as a paytrain when I was little so not just ER.

Yes, the Bletchley 105 Cravens units were branded as paytrains, remember them well rattling along the Bedford to Bletchley branch - happy youthful days

 

[jonny777]

8 hours ago, russ p said:

 

 

So there was a blue and grey 114 back then?

 

 

 

Only for about two weeks as far as I can remember. I was looking forward to the rest of the class appearing in that livery, but none did (well, at least not until the 1980s).

 

It was not the same livery though. The one I saw had the blue/grey painted similar to a Mk1 coach, with the grey parted across the cab doors and up to the yellow front. 

 

I could never decide if it was a deliberate marketing ploy, or if the colours were not liked by management and an all blue repaint was ordered. 

 

 

Edited October 2, 2019 by jonny777

[caradoc]

3 hours ago, 08221 said:

Yes, the Bletchley 105 Cravens units were branded as paytrains, remember them well rattling along the Bedford to Bletchley branch - happy youthful days

 

 

Same here, we used to get the bus from Oxford to Bletchley (which had replaced the train service !), the train to St Johns and walk to Midland.

 

[08221]

12 hours ago, russ p said:

 

 

So there was a blue and grey 114 back then?

 

 

 

Wonder if any photos of it exist and if it differed from the 'standard' blue and grey livery that we later got so used to seeing.