British Rail - pay trains when did they start

[Mark Saunders]

The area that confused me was Newcastle Division, the North Tyne loop retained booking offices till closure but South Shields and Sunderland were paytrains by the 1970's.

 

Mark Saunders

[The Stationmaster]

On 01/10/2019 at 12:10, Edwin_m said:

The leaflet mentions re-booking at the main station if continuing a journey by intercity.  But normally a local ticket plus a separate intercity ticket would cost more than a through ticket.  Was there some means of refunding the difference on production of the Paytrain ticket at the main booking office, or did the unfortunate passenger just have to stump up the extra if not booking in advance (which in those days might have required an extra trip on the Paytrain to visit the main office or somewhere with a rail-accredited travel agent)?  And would the return journey of such a ticket include the Paytrain leg, as tickets from staffed stations elsewhere to Paytrain destinations presumably would in both directions?  

When the ER introduced Pay Trains there would have been no difference in the price of tickets for the same journey depending on where they were booked because ordinary passenger fares were still mileage based at that time.  The Selective Prices Manual, which effectively ended mileage based ordinary fares, wasn't introduced until c.1975/76.  Through booking from staffed stations to lines worked by Pay Trains, or their equivalent on other Regions. often continued although an idea lurks in the back of my mind that on some ER routes that was not necessarily the case.  it was definitely the case on the WR that through booking from elsewhere to branch lines worked by Conductor Guards did not change and has continued ever since.

 

Of course nowadays with modern ticket machines and software there is little problem making through bookings (to definitely the most popular destinations) on lines worked by Conductor Guards.

On 02/10/2019 at 08:15, 08221 said:

Yes, the Bletchley 105 Cravens units were branded as paytrains, remember them well rattling along the Bedford to Bletchley branch - happy youthful days

 

The LMR also used the term at one stage so that would not be unlikely.  As far as I'm aware the WR never used it and except on lines where Setright machines were used you could always book through to quite a number of destinations on WR lines where Conductor Guards operated.  The Setright machines were a bl**dy nuisance because although they had the advantage of being dirt cheap and very reliable they did not have an audit roll so could very easily be used for fiddling the cash - the WR didn't use them for very long and on many lines on the Region they were never used.

[jonny777]

On 02/10/2019 at 12:07, 08221 said:

 

Wonder if any photos of it exist and if it differed from the 'standard' blue and grey livery that we later got so used to seeing.

 

 

I've never seen a photo of it, nor even a mention in any periodicals of the time. 

 

I suppose I could have dreamed it, but it did appear a few times in quick succession as I recall, then never to be seen again. 

[SED Freightman]

Railway Magazine August 1969 edition mentioned that from 15th June Paytrains were introduced on the Leeds - Harrogate - York service and from 29th June they were introduced between Cleethorpes and New Holland, Barton-on-Humber, Doncaster, Retford, and Newark via Lincoln, and between Lincoln and Sheffield.  The item also states 'Most intermediate stations have become unstaffed and passengers have to rebook when interchanging'.

 

Railway Magazine November 1969 edition mentioned under the heading 'Hope Valley Pay Trains', that tickets had been issued by conductor / guards over the Hope Valley Line between Shefficeld Midland and New Mills since 7th September.

[caradoc]

The Bletchley/Bedford route was certainly Paytrain when I first travelled on it, around 1973.

 

I also have a vague recollection that Paytrain routes were operated, fare collection-wise, independently from the rest of BR, and that tickets had to be bought on the train even if you joined at a staffed station; In August 1975 I travelled from Darlington to Thornaby and definitely did not have to buy a ticket at Darlington. I recall hoping (as an impoverished 15-year old) that the Guard would not come round to collect fares, but of course they did, just before Thornaby !

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by caradoc
Spelling mistake

[Clive Mortimore]

Pay trains were great, well saying you were catching a pay train was. At the barrier at Colchester station, tell the ticket collector you were going to Sudbury, a pay train. Catch a stopper, normally a 308 which was non gangway in those days, so no ticket inspector. At Liverpool Street tell the ticket collector you didn't have time to buy a ticket at Romford, he would send you to the excess fare booth, where if you had sense you would ask for a return to Romford. Enjoy the night out. Catch the newspaper train home, travelling in the coach provided for the sorters for their return journey. Get back to Colchester nip out the parcels entrance as there was no one on it. Back to the barracks in time for breakfast. Pay trains what a wonderful invention.

 

Of course now I am a grumpy old git I deplore such activity and the scoundrels should be well thrashed with the birch.

[doilum]

Some local lads released an album of folk songs in 1973. Included a track "Pay train". Pay train pay train going to Leeds..............

[AMJ]

It was interesting chatting with a friend who is a conductor and there are most of the regulars getting on the trains with a ticket on the app on mobile.  Many others are paying by contactless cards so the cash carried by them is going down.  Many operators are putting the current emphasis upon the passenger (not customer) to buy at the machine before boarding the train.

 

Pay Trains didn't save lines as there are places such at the Clayton West branch that hung on until the 1980's before shutting.  However I think that some of the smaller unstaffed "new" stations wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the ability to buy onboard.

 

[muddys-blues]

Gents, many thanks for all the replies, I didn't realise the term Pay Train was mainly an ER or LMR term, what was used on the Western or Southern when the station booking facilities where withdrawn on less used lines ?

 

Best regards

Craig.

[Chris116]

20 minutes ago, muddys-blues said:

Gents, many thanks for all the replies, I didn't realise the term Pay Train was mainly an ER or LMR term, what was used on the Western or Southern when the station booking facilities where withdrawn on less used lines ?

 

Best regards

Craig.

Penalty Fare!

[The Stationmaster]

On 14/10/2019 at 21:28, muddys-blues said:

Gents, many thanks for all the replies, I didn't realise the term Pay Train was mainly an ER or LMR term, what was used on the Western or Southern when the station booking facilities where withdrawn on less used lines ?

 

Best regards

Craig.

The Western didn't bother with anything fancy so you might get a local poster saying pay on the train or you might not get a poster and have to work it out fir yourself.  In some cases details of a line being converted to Conductor Guard ticketing would appear in a local 'paper but normally in the form of 'you'll now have to buy your ticket on the train because so-&-so station will be unstaffed from next Monday'

[muddys-blues]

2 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

The Western didn't bother with anything fancy so you might get a local poster saying pay on the train or you might not get a poster and have to work it out fir yourself.  In some cases details of a line being converted to Conductor Guard ticketing would appear in a local 'paper but normally in the form of 'you'll now have to buy your ticket on the train because so-&-so station will be unstaffed from next Monday'

 

Many thanks Mike, that helps me get my layout operating method correct when I get round to it.

 

best regards

Craig

[muddys-blues]

5 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

The Western didn't bother with anything fancy so you might get a local poster saying pay on the train or you might not get a poster and have to work it out fir yourself.  In some cases details of a line being converted to Conductor Guard ticketing would appear in a local 'paper but normally in the form of 'you'll now have to buy your ticket on the train because so-&-so station will be unstaffed from next Monday'

 

Many thanks Mike, that helps me get my layout operating method correct when I get round to it.

 

best regards

Craig

[Robin Verth]

The Kent and East Sussex Railway used to sell tickets on the train as they at the time had no corridor stock the person selling tickets had to hang on outside the coach working his way down collecting any fares.